That's why you go through intensive learning and then are given the ability to go and become an imam because your thoughts are a lot more comprehensive - taking into account everything - which is also why none of the imams before him made such controversial statements.
Wahhabism or Slander ?
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1. @Dawo , Abubakr was Caliph was this wahabbi dude a caliph??
2. The correct action would have been to go to the ottoman empire and explain things clearly since they are in charge and come with a uniform plan of action.
3. Shirk is a sin against Allah, and Allah is the best judge. His job was to inform people and not incite stuff.
4. Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab formulated a strong anti-Christian and anti-Judaic stance in Kitab al-Tawhid,[89] describing followers of both the Christian and Jewish faiths as sorcerers[89] who believed in devil-worship,[89] and cited a hadith attributed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad[Note 2] stating that punishment for the sorcerer is "that he be struck with the sword"
2. The correct action would have been to go to the ottoman empire and explain things clearly since they are in charge and come with a uniform plan of action.
3. Shirk is a sin against Allah, and Allah is the best judge. His job was to inform people and not incite stuff.
4. Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab formulated a strong anti-Christian and anti-Judaic stance in Kitab al-Tawhid,[89] describing followers of both the Christian and Jewish faiths as sorcerers[89] who believed in devil-worship,[89] and cited a hadith attributed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad[Note 2] stating that punishment for the sorcerer is "that he be struck with the sword"
Lol, this wahabbi guy is a complete joke watch the video from yasir qadhi
Why are you comparing status when i compared their actions, their actions do not differ both of their actions the sole reason was for misguidance to not get into islam.
Using your logic is my salah and lets say Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbals salah different, he was a scholar of islam, i am an ordinary person but the action is still the same.
"Anti christian and Anti Judaism" Stance
of course a muslim must be anti muslim and christian this is the basic tenants of faith.
First you claim destroying the shrines was wrong then i bought a hadith which states the prophet destroyed idols you said the reason your against abdul wahhab is his "situational reasoning" stop switching it up
There's no excuse for shirk,
Muhammad ibn abdul wahhab didn't rebel against the ottoman caliphate as addressed in the earlier pages, you yourself acknowledged this.
Whatever hatred you have for the guy you need to be just because you have no leg to stand on and you keep dodging my questions
You want to be the last person who makes a point, nothing you said in this thread at all has refuted abdul wahhabs kitabul tawheed and his stance towards polytheism.
Your emotional rhetoric and copy paste from wikipedia sources are not needed cause they are not backed up by quran and sunnah
I'll watch this although yasir qadhi is not a reputable source but i want to hear his points
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
@Dawo
1. A good place to start would be the videos by bro hajji regarding this issue, it's worth checking them out.
2. Regarding seeking intercession with the deceased ie Tawassul then this is a matter that has been allowed and even prescribed by the classic ulama of the past. Some only allow tawassul with the Prophet (peace be upon him) while others included righteous people etc. Among those who allowed only with the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Imam Ahmad. Albani confirms this in his book about tawassul and the following to say (pg 38)
In fact tawassul has been allowed by majority of ulama in all the 4 schools like imam nawawi, imam jilani, imam ibn qudamah,ibn hajar etc etc the list is long, even those who didn't allow it they never ruled that it was shirk akbar, Only in our modern times is it classified as shirk and as far as i know it was miaw who is the first person to say it's shirk akbar and made takfir on muslims because of it. Just ask yourself how is it possible that a scholar like imam ahmad allowed tawassul with the Prophet (peace be upon him) but miaw considers it to be shirk akbar ?
Had it been shirk or anything close to it imam ahmad and all the other scholars who allowed and prescribed it would've stated it but we've nothing from them. The only scholar that salafis rely on is ibn taymiyyah who was the first one to declare it to be bidah etc, and he was refuted by the hanbali scholars of his day for having such a position.
So to summarise on this point modern day salafis who either consider tawassul to be shirk or is not allowed are a minority within a minority and they've no one who preceded them in this except for miaw who said it was shirk akbar. His own brother wrote a book the divine lightening refuting his dawah
There's a lot of information not published in english esp the chronicles detailing the savagery and blood-spilling that resulted from miaw's dawah. Did you know he made takfir of the entire population of a town called huraymila, his brother sulaiman was a qadhi in that town. Can you imagine declaring not only your brother but an entire town as murtads. Mind you the people of this town were people who initially supported his dawah and took part in some of his follower's campaigns of attacking other muslims but after deciding not to do so anymore suddenly they become apostates ? He wrote a book after making takfir of them.
In addition to this miaw also claimed that in the Najd, only he alone knew the true meaning of la ilaha illa’Llah; not even the other scholars did
Chain takfir
Killing the people of al-Ahsa`
Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) said while speaking about the incidents of the year 1210 AH:
Unfortunately as i said before most of these works have not been translated to english as far as i know, tbh it's not that surprising to understand why given the nature of the above works and what they inform us of miaw's dawah and followers.
Also check out my thread about the salafi understanding of tawheed, it clarifies some important misunderstanding that they have about tawheed.
Salafi understanding of tawheed
1. A good place to start would be the videos by bro hajji regarding this issue, it's worth checking them out.
2. Regarding seeking intercession with the deceased ie Tawassul then this is a matter that has been allowed and even prescribed by the classic ulama of the past. Some only allow tawassul with the Prophet (peace be upon him) while others included righteous people etc. Among those who allowed only with the Prophet (peace be upon him) is Imam Ahmad. Albani confirms this in his book about tawassul and the following to say (pg 38)
In fact tawassul has been allowed by majority of ulama in all the 4 schools like imam nawawi, imam jilani, imam ibn qudamah,ibn hajar etc etc the list is long, even those who didn't allow it they never ruled that it was shirk akbar, Only in our modern times is it classified as shirk and as far as i know it was miaw who is the first person to say it's shirk akbar and made takfir on muslims because of it. Just ask yourself how is it possible that a scholar like imam ahmad allowed tawassul with the Prophet (peace be upon him) but miaw considers it to be shirk akbar ?
Had it been shirk or anything close to it imam ahmad and all the other scholars who allowed and prescribed it would've stated it but we've nothing from them. The only scholar that salafis rely on is ibn taymiyyah who was the first one to declare it to be bidah etc, and he was refuted by the hanbali scholars of his day for having such a position.
So to summarise on this point modern day salafis who either consider tawassul to be shirk or is not allowed are a minority within a minority and they've no one who preceded them in this except for miaw who said it was shirk akbar. His own brother wrote a book the divine lightening refuting his dawah
There's a lot of information not published in english esp the chronicles detailing the savagery and blood-spilling that resulted from miaw's dawah. Did you know he made takfir of the entire population of a town called huraymila, his brother sulaiman was a qadhi in that town. Can you imagine declaring not only your brother but an entire town as murtads. Mind you the people of this town were people who initially supported his dawah and took part in some of his follower's campaigns of attacking other muslims but after deciding not to do so anymore suddenly they become apostates ? He wrote a book after making takfir of them.
In addition to this miaw also claimed that in the Najd, only he alone knew the true meaning of la ilaha illa’Llah; not even the other scholars did
(Al-Durar al-Saniyyah, 10:51. )
Chain takfir
Al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/291
Killing the people of al-Ahsa`
Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) said while speaking about the incidents of the year 1210 AH:
'Unwan al-Majd 1/216-217
Unfortunately as i said before most of these works have not been translated to english as far as i know, tbh it's not that surprising to understand why given the nature of the above works and what they inform us of miaw's dawah and followers.
Also check out my thread about the salafi understanding of tawheed, it clarifies some important misunderstanding that they have about tawheed.
Salafi understanding of tawheed
Ok nice information from classical reliable ahlul sunnah ulemah which is what i wanted Jazkallah sxb ill look into this during the coming days, looks informative and can clear some questions i have in mind
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
np walaal just learn at your own pace as this is a very big topic to deal with tbh. I'll try to answer any questions that you may have according to what i've learnt so far etc
BarakuAllah feek sxb im aware of some of the deviancy preached by individuals who claim to follow the salaf it is quite confusing to wrap your mind around it because these people are still muslims but they have introduced a bidah which confuses the masses so no one knows who is right or who is wrong...
Ijtihaad errors may play apart also from ulemah who disagree with each other on certain issues
I will DM you sxb once i finish watching these videos
Respected scholars should be trusted
Shia aren't muslim they slander the sahaba and call them Kafir.
Also shia give Allah's names to Hussein, Hassan , and Ali may Allag be pleased them all. One of the 3 parts of tawheed is the oneness of Allahs names
Not only Wahabis call them kafirs. Imam shafi'I cursed the rafidha
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
Wa iyyakum walaal, tbh when i started looking into "salafiism" a bit more in detail i initially thought that the bad reputation they've stems from a few bad apples etc. The more i researched the more i realised that despite the different sub-groups within salafis they've a common foundation, that being they all refer back to miaw and his dawah. Meaning their difference comes in how they interpret his work.
The issues stem from the works miaw wrote and how modern day salafis interpret & write books based on them , you'll find some more extreme and cultist than others like the madakhali etc where they label anyone who doesn't share their views as khariji etc. Even though the laymen maybe more severe in their excessiveness, the core that gave rise to them came from their scholars.
Most of those who follow or ascribe to the salafi dawah be it either in the west or even back home are completely unaware of the history behind this dawah. All they're taught is miaw came to spread tawheed and refute shirk etc. When in reality the truth is further from this, miaw came with a different understanding of tawheed & shirk and to this day this is what it's being taught by all those who follow him.
By the way the brother who talks about miaw & his dawah despite disagreeing with him in matters of takfir is still a follower of his dawah when it comes to tawheed & shirk. So in reality his objection is about the implementation of takfir as opposed to the underlying reasons behind the takfir.
Yeah, his implementation was wrong and some of his thoughts were extreme.
The repurcussions have been severe, Islam has always been about welcoming others and best practices. That's why there's 200million Indonesian Muslims today.
The miaw dude severely overreached and his followers even more so.
The repurcussions have been severe, Islam has always been about welcoming others and best practices. That's why there's 200million Indonesian Muslims today.
The miaw dude severely overreached and his followers even more so.
what mohammed ibn abdil wahab was preaching wasn't something new hes beliefs were the same as other sheikhs before his time he merely preached for muslims to return to those teachings which is conservative islam to restore pure monotheistic values and implement them in everyday life. so i don't understand people who say it's a cult.
Intially the issue i had was their distortion of the khurooj against ruler hukum it just didn't make sense their POV..
I read the other thread you posted and you said they made a bidah in one of the categories of tawheed and claimed the mushrikeen of quraysh had one aspect of tawheed which to me for them to claim is strange because as muslim we know tawheed and shirk cannot mix its pure contradictory..
Regarding chain takfeer can you bring me any quotes from ulemah classical regarding nullifiers of islam like ibn qudumah, imam nawawi, ibn qayyim etc im trying to gather both sides of the argument and understand both their points.
Also do you not think abdul wahhab made ijtihaad error, would you deem him part of ASWJ or a complete innovator ?
I remember reading a quote imam shawkani praising some of the work of abdul wahhab ?
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
The shocking part is that they contradict themselves since saudi state expanded and attacked hijaz, iraq, damascus, sham etc areas which were under the control of the ottomans ie they rebelled against the ruler. In their view the ottomans were mushriks, and hence had no Islamic rule. Funny enough alqaida, isis etc use the fatwa of the early najdi ulama and make takfir of the current saudi state.
The point about mixing tawheed & shirk is one of the mistakes they've but not the most significant one. You see they claim that makkan pagans in the pre-Islamic time used to have COMPLETE tawheed regarding the Lordship of Allah ta'ala without setting any partners to him in this and that their polytheism was only one in actions and that this is the "polytheism in divinity" shirk uluhiiyah. Basically what they're saying is that the shirk of the makkan pagans was one where they made their gods intercessors with Allah and called upon their gods on this basis.
They then argue that anyone who seeks intercession of the deceased be it with the Prophet or the righteous is committing the same actions as the makan pagans ie "Shirk akbar. Since this is clear shirk one is obliged to declare those who commit these actions as polytheists and anyone doubting this becomes a disbeliever. Now the problem with this is that the foundation that this entire chain takfir is built on is false making any ruling that's deducted from it also false. This here is the problem with the chain takfir and not with the principle itself.
Now the problem with miaw's view of tawassul etc is that it's a matter that had already been settled long ago was permitted by all the major scholars of islam. All the madhabs allow it as well, none claimed it was shirk akbar. How is it possible to make Takfir based upon an issue which the major scholars have regarded as allowed? Furthermore the only muslims left would be miaw and his followers as he made takfir not only on the issue but also anyone who doubts it. Do you see how dangerous this is ? It's one thing to have ijtihad on any particular issue and another to declare anyone who disagrees with your ijtihad as kafir.
Imam shawkani did praise initially but retracted and criticised miaw later on ( this what i read somewhere but can't confirm it though), laakin shawkani allowed tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon him and the pious so it's most probable that he retracted his support after finding out that miaw's view on tawassul.
@AdoonkaAlle it's clear these guys don't listen to reason they want to stick to their own thoughts instead of using their own brains.
@AdoonkaAlle what do you think about the 10 nullifiers of Islam?
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