Wahhabism or Slander ?

[AdoonkaAlle]

Sxb that hadith of the prophet is irrefutable i mean it clearly states

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not sit on graves, or pray towards them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 972)

Also why is imam abu hanifa saying only call upon Allah if all madhabs allowed tawassul to deceased..

bn Khuzaymah writes:
أَفَلَيْسَ الْعِلْمُ مُحِيطًا أَنَّهُ غَيْرُ جَائِزٍ أَنْ يَأْمُرَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِالتَّعَوُّذِ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ هَلْ سَمِعْتُمْ عَالِمًا يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ الدَّاعِيأَعُوذُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِ اللَّهِ أَوْ يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ أَعُوذُ بِالصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةِ أَوْ أَعُوذُ بِعَرَفَاتٍ وَمِنًى مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ هَذَا لَا يَقُولُهُ وَلَا يُجِيزُ الْقَوْلَ بِهِمُسْلِمٌ يَعْرِفُ دِينَ اللَّهِ مُحَالٌ أَنْ يَسْتَعِيذَ مُسْلِمٌ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ
Is it not understood that it is not possible the Prophet (ṣ) commanded seeking refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation? Have you heard a scholar permit a supplicant to say: I seek refuge in the Ka’bah from the evil Allah has created? Or permit one to say: I seek refuge in Safa and Marwah, or I seek refuge in Arafat and Mina from the evil Allah has created? This would not be said or permitted by a Muslim who knows the religion of Allah. It is impossible for a Muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation.
Source: al-Tawḥīd 1/401

"it is impossible for a muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from evil of his creation" - What does this mean ?

Bare in mind this is a direct student of imam bukhari who lived in 8/9th century?

I mean how can i dispute this ??

Walaal i think you're not understanding what i'm saying, secondly that hadith is telling us about the etiquette we should have when visiting graves. The Prophet peace be upon is warning people not to show disrespect to the graves by sitting on them, walking over them etc and also not to pray salah etc facing the direction of the graves.

Anas ibn Malik reported: Umar ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, saw me while I was praying near a grave and he raised his voice, saying, “The grave!” I thought he said something else, so I looked toward the sky. Umar came and he said, “Indeed, I said the grave. Do not pray towards it.”

Source: Muṣannaf ‘Abd al-Razzāq 1524

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Ibn Hajar

Seeking intercession with the deceased is not worship,nor is anyone seeking refuge with the deceased had it been so none of the ulama would've permitted it. What is forcing you to understand it like that walaal ? You're conflating issues that have nothing to do with each other as a result of a misunderstanding that you have

What makes believe that when one seeks intercession with the deceased that they're worshipping them, seeking refuge from them etc ?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

No calling upon other people to help you is a wasilah.

So when imam ahmed called and sought the help of angels was it wasilah or shirk ?

 

[المهندس]

Walaal i think you're not understanding what i'm saying, secondly that hadith is telling us about the etiquette we should have when visiting graves. The Prophet peace be upon is warning people not to show disrespect to the graves by sitting on them, walking over them etc and also not to pray salah etc facing the direction of the graves.

Seeking intercession with the deceased is not worship,nor is anyone seeking refuge with the deceased had it been so none of the ulama would've permitted it. What is forcing you to understand it like that walaal ? You're conflating issues that have nothing to do with each other as a result of a misunderstanding that you have

What makes believe that when one seeks intercession with the deceased that they're worshipping them, seeking refuge from them etc ?

Duaa ( To call upon or invoke) is worship sxb, i mean whats calling upon a dead person going to do for me when they are occupied in their graves allahu alam what is going on the grave..

Why not ask Allah directly, why the need for intercession especially someone who is not alive and someone who doesn't have power to change a situation.

No one is forcing me sxb but it doesn't sound right to pray to invoke a dead person.


Ibn Rajab said in Fath al-Baari (1/20): You should understand that the original linguistic meaning of du‘aa’ is to ask or seek, so it is asking for what the supplicant wants to get and prefers to attain - how is this not worship??


It was narrated from an-Nu‘maan ibn Basheer (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Du‘aa’ is worship.” Then he recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And your Lord says, ‘Call upon Me; I will respond to you.’ Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.” [Ghaafir 40:60]. Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad (18352) and al-Bukhaari in al-Adab al-Mufrad (714).

also sxb read that website i sent they said ibn tayymiah wasn't the first one to come with it its been since 4 madhab you quote imam ahmed but imam abu hanfia says otherwise.


When the last moment of the life of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets."

( Sahih Bukhari 435)


I mean im not scholar im not here to insult abdul wahhab or insult nawawi or imam ahmed akhi, im going by quran and sunnah and to me the overwhelming evidences states that tawassul towards dead people is not permissble i can't see another valid justification from quran and sunnah sahih hadiths

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

also walaal check this website regarding tawassul its not islamqa because i know islamqa do not specify certain details and since its run from saudi it might have a bit of biasness towards it ( i have nothing against islamqa btw infact i am always reading on there)

Permissibility of Tawassul

Explore the permissibility of Tawassul in Islam, including the views of notable scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and others. Tawassul, or seeking nearness to Allah through intermediaries, is categorized into permissible and impermissible types. Scholars widely agree that invoking Allah by His...

www.islamweb.org

I know of the website, believe it's run from kuwait and they share the same opinion, we judge evidence based on it's own merit so for me i don't have issues you quoting, citing fatwa's from them.

I've included the evidence and also the statements of some the scholar who permitted tawassul with the deceased.


1. Hadith of the blind man

From Uthman bin Hunayf [who narrated] that a blind man came to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and said: “Supplicate to Allah to cure me.” [The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -] said, “If you wish I will supplicate [for you] and if you wish you may be patient and that will be better for you.” He said, “Supplicate to Him.” [The narrator] said, “So the Prophet instructed him to make ablution (wudhu`), perfect his ablution and then supplicate with this prayer:
‘O Allah, I ask You and approuch You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. [O Muhammad,] I approach my Lord through you in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me’”.

2.Hadith of the man in need

A man was going to `Uthmān ibn `Affān - radhiallahu 'anhu - trying to get something done for himself. However, `Uthmān didn’t pay any attention to him, nor did he look after his need. That man went to `Uthmān ibn Hunayf and complained about that to him. `Uthmān ibn Hunayf said to him, “Go and perform ablution (wudū), then go to the mosque and pray two cycles (rak`atayn) of prayer, then say: ‘O Allāh, I ask You and I approach You through your Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad, I approach my Lord through you that my need be fulfilled,’ then mention your need. Thereafter come to me that I might go with you.”

Then the man went away and did what he was told. After that he went to the door of `Uthmān ibn `Affān; whereupon the doorkeeper took him by the hand and ushered him into `Uthmān ibn `Affān who sat him down beside him on his mat and said to him, “What can I do for you?” He told him what he needed and `Uthmān had that done for him and then he said to him, “I didn’t remember your problem until now. Whenever you need anything come to me.” Thereupon the man left him and went to `Uthmān ibn Hunayf and said, “May Allāh bless you, `Uthmān wouldn’t look after me, nor even pay attention to me until you spoke to him about me.” `Uthmān ibn Hunayf replied, “I swear by Allāh that I didn’t speak to him.

Actually, I saw a blind man come to the Messenger of Allāh ﷺ and complain to him about losing his sight. The Prophet ﷺ said to him, “Wouldn’t you rather show patience?” He replied, “O Messenger of Allāh, I don’t have a guide and the matter has become an ordeal for me.” The Prophet ﷺ said to him, “Go and make ablution (wudū), then pray two cycles (rak`atayn) of prayer, then make this supplication (du’ā).“ I swear by Allāh, we hadn’t gone away, nor had we remained a long time in talk when the man returned as if he had never suffered any affliction."

3. Imam Nawawi on tawassul

Then he (i.e. the one visiting the grave of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) should return to his original position facing the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, and he should make him a mean for himself and seek intercession through him unto his Lord subhanahu wa ta'ala.
And the best what can be said [here] is what al-Mawardi (d. 450 AH) and al-Qadhi Abu al-Tayyib (d. 450 AH) and the rest of our [Shafi'i] companions narrated from al-'Utbi and they regarded it as good. He said:

"As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Beduin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful" (4:64), so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord."

His book Al adkhar pg 206


4.Imam Ibn Qudama

4.1 Seeking intercession

O Allah, You spoke and your saying is the truth: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
So I've come to you, asking [my Lord] for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession through you unto my Lord.
So I ask you, o Lord, that you grant me forgiveness just like you granted it to the one who came to him during his life.
O Allah, grant to him that he be the first of the intercessors, the most successful of those who ask, and the most honorable of the first and the last, through Your Mercy - o Most Merciful of the Merciful!.


4.2 Acting upon the hadith of the blind man when in need

If you need something from Allah, exalted is He, and want to seek it from Him, do wudu and do it well, perform two rak’ahs, and praise Allah, mighty and majestic is He, bless the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and then say:

‘There is no god but Allah, the Ever-Forbearing, the Generous. Glory is to Allah, the Lord of the immense Throne. Praise belongs to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. O Allah, I ask You for what obliges Your mercy and the firm resolution (to obtain) Your forgiveness, the obtainment of every act of piety and safety from every wrongdoing. O Allah, do not leave me any wrong action but that You forgive it nor any care but that You relieve it nor any need that is pleasing to You but that You settle it, O Most Merciful of the merciful.

O Allah, I ask You and turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I turn by you to My Lord and your Lord, mighty and majestic is He, for Him to settle my need for me.’ Then he should mention what he needs.

It is related that the early Muslims (Salaf) used to seek to have their needs fulfilled by praying two rak’ahs and then saying: ‘O Allah, I seek opening by You and success by You. I turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). O Allah, make the difficulty in my business easy for me, ease my hardship for me, make smooth for me good than I hope for and avert from me more evil than I fear

His book Wasiyya (p. 46-48) under the chapter of asking for a need


Reading those evidences and statements shows clearly that the above scholars had a different view of tawassul than what it's claimed on that website.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Duaa ( To call upon or invoke) is worship sxb, i mean whats calling upon a dead person going to do for me when they are occupied in their graves allahu alam what is going on the grave..

Why not ask Allah directly, why the need for intercession especially someone who is not alive and someone who doesn't have power to change a situation.

No one is forcing me sxb but it doesn't sound right to pray to invoke a dead person.


Ibn Rajab said in Fath al-Baari (1/20): You should understand that the original linguistic meaning of du‘aa’ is to ask or seek, so it is asking for what the supplicant wants to get and prefers to attain - how is this not worship??


It was narrated from an-Nu‘maan ibn Basheer (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Du‘aa’ is worship.” Then he recited the verse (interpretation of the meaning): “And your Lord says, ‘Call upon Me; I will respond to you.’ Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.” [Ghaafir 40:60]. Narrated by Ahmad in al-Musnad (18352) and al-Bukhaari in al-Adab al-Mufrad (714).

also sxb read that website i sent they said ibn tayymiah wasn't the first one to come with it its been since 4 madhab you quote imam ahmed but imam abu hanfia says otherwise.


When the last moment of the life of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came he started putting his 'Khamisa' on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets."

( Sahih Bukhari 435)


I mean im not scholar im not here to insult abdul wahhab or insult nawawi or imam ahmed akhi, im going by quran and sunnah and to me the overwhelming evidences states that tawassul towards dead people is not permissble i can't see another valid justification from quran and sunnah sahih hadiths

So when imam ahmad was calling on the slaves of Allah he was worshipping them ? imam ahmed was committing shirk ? Who told you to pray to the deceased ?

You've not brought a single statement from imam abu hanifa regarding tawassul with the deceased yet concluded he was against it ? aren't you supposed to find actual statements from him proving your case ? you also don't know about the opinion of the hanafi madhab regarding tawassul, just do a simple search and see what you find. The hanablis permit it, so as do the shafi's and maliki's etc walaal the more you look into what the classical ulama said about tawassul with the deceased the more you'll realise that the salafi opinion that it's shirk is very wrong

Stop making haste decisions into issues that you've not studied properly, most importantly it's better to leave any doubtful matter instead of accusing muslims of committing shirk etc.

 

[المهندس]

So when imam ahmad was calling on the slaves of Allah he was worshipping them ? imam ahmed was committing shirk ? Who told you to pray to the deceased ?

You've not brought a single statement from imam abu hanifa regarding tawassul with the deceased yet concluded he was against it ? aren't you supposed to find actual statements from him proving your case ? you also don't know about the opinion of the hanafi madhab regarding tawassul, just do a simple search and see what you find. The hanablis permit it, so as do the shafi's and maliki's etc walaal the more you look into what the classical ulama said about tawassul with the deceased the more you'll realise that the salafi opinion that it's shirk is very wrong

Stop making haste decisions into issues that you've not studied properly, most importantly it's better to leave any doubtful matter instead of accusing muslims of committing shirk etc.

Shukri Al-Alusi, son of Mahmud Al-Alusi said in “Ghayatul Amani” in refutation of An-Nabbahani about Tawassul with du’a: “And this is done with alive people, and not dead, and this is Tawassul with their du’a and their Shafa’ah (intercession), because the alive is sought for that, and as for the dead, nothing is sought from him, neither Du’a nor anything else.” (“Ghayatul Amani” v 2 p 335)

^^ this was the son of a hanafi scholar that lived under the early ottoman caliphates.


Imam Mahmud Al-Alusi said in his “Ruh ul-Ma’ani” in Tafsir of the verse “Seek Wasilah to Him” (Maidah: 35):

"As for when the sought person is dead or absent, it is not hidden for scholars that it is not permissible and it is from innovations that none of the Salaf did"

It seems to be ottoman empire hanafi scholars did not do tawassul to the dead.. i mean either these translations are wrong and have been translated on purpose for a hidden agenda or they are right

It doesn't make sense sxb, how can someone seek intercession through a dead person, you are indirectly thinking this dead person is going to help you..

Why did Allah say invoke him only ??

Why did the prophet mention graves in the hadiths i sent ??

Shaykh Albani quotes in his book “Tawassul” the words Shaykh ‘Athemabadee
of from his “Ta’liq ‘ala Mughni”:



“They (Ahnaf) also say in “Al-Bazzaziyah” and other books of religious verdict : “Whoever claims that the souls of Shaykhs are present, and they know what happens, he becomes Kafir” [“Al-Bahr” (5/134) ]

Also Shaykh Fakhruddin Abu Sa’d ‘Uthman Al-Jiyani Ibn Sulayman Al-Hanafi says in one of his risalah: “Whoever thinks that a dead person has any control on matters besides Allah, and he believes in it, then he is a Kafir”

"Whoever claims the soul of a dead person is present" - what does this mean ?

If someone goes to a grave and they seek intercession to a dead person they must believe his soul is present so they can hear him ??

I mean its clear cut to me sxb and tbh sxb i don't follow saudi salafis cause i believe they are not sincere and exhibit cultish like behaviour to defend the current saudi state... but i mean asking for help to the dead ?? this is a whole different story and i am not convinced this is anything which the salaf tabieen tabiun endorsed.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Shukri Al-Alusi, son of Mahmud Al-Alusi said in “Ghayatul Amani” in refutation of An-Nabbahani about Tawassul with du’a: “And this is done with alive people, and not dead, and this is Tawassul with their du’a and their Shafa’ah (intercession), because the alive is sought for that, and as for the dead, nothing is sought from him, neither Du’a nor anything else.” (“Ghayatul Amani” v 2 p 335)

^^ this was the son of a hanafi scholar that lived under the early ottoman caliphates.


Imam Mahmud Al-Alusi said in his “Ruh ul-Ma’ani” in Tafsir of the verse “Seek Wasilah to Him” (Maidah: 35):

"As for when the sought person is dead or absent, it is not hidden for scholars that it is not permissible and it is from innovations that none of the Salaf did"

It seems to be ottoman empire hanafi scholars did not do tawassul to the dead.. i mean either these translations are wrong and have been translated on purpose for a hidden agenda or they are right

imam ahmad 780-855
imam ibn qudamah 1147-1223
imam nawawi 1233-1277
ottoman empire 1299-1922
imam Mahmud Al-Alusi 1802- 1854
Shukri Al-Alusi 1856 - 1924

Imam mahmud and his son lived during the late stages of the ottoman empire, they also came after miaw and his dawah. What i was able to gather about him is that he was also influenced by the dawah of miaw, even if we assume he wasn't, we've ulama who preceded him by centuries permitting tawassul with the deceased. Whose understanding should we prioritise walaal ?

What about other scholars from the ottomans ? did you look into them ?

It doesn't make sense sxb, how can someone seek intercession through a dead person, you are indirectly thinking this dead person is going to help you..
Why did Allah say invoke him only ??
Why did the prophet mention graves in the hadiths i sent ??

Tawassul is wasilah. in the hadith of the blind man the Prophet peace be upon him is teaching the blind man a dua where he uses the Prophet himself as a wasilah so as to have his need fulfilled. This hadith was acted upon by sahaba and their students, all the major ulama etc.

From Uthman bin Hunayf [who narrated] that a blind man came to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and said: “Supplicate to Allah to cure me.” [The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -] said, “If you wish I will supplicate [for you] and if you wish you may be patient and that will be better for you.” He said, “Supplicate to Him.” [The narrator] said, “So the Prophet instructed him to make ablution (wudhu`), perfect his ablution and then supplicate with this prayer:
‘O Allah, I ask You and approuch You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. [O Muhammad,] I approach my Lord through you in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me’”.

Also Shaykh Fakhruddin Abu Sa’d ‘Uthman Al-Jiyani Ibn Sulayman Al-Hanafi says in one of his risalah: “Whoever thinks that a dead person has any control on matters besides Allah, and he believes in it, then he is a Kafir”

Can you please explain to me how that is relevant to this discussion about tawassul ? does being alive or dead make a difference with regards to believing that anyone besides Allah is in control ? There's a big misunderstanding on your part which is making you interpret this issue all together differently. You're looking for evidences that "seem" to validate the view you have of tawassul.

There're major ulama who allowed tawassul with the deceased starting with the Prophet peace be upon him, this fact alone should make one to stop and reflect on this issue properly.

Shaykh Albani quotes in his book “Tawassul” the words Shaykh ‘Athemabadee
of from his “Ta’liq ‘ala Mughni”:

“They (Ahnaf) also say in “Al-Bazzaziyah” and other books of religious verdict : “Whoever claims that the souls of Shaykhs are present, and they know what happens, he becomes Kafir” [“Al-Bahr” (5/134) ]

"Whoever claims the soul of a dead person is present" - what does this mean ?

If someone goes to a grave and they seek intercession to a dead person they must believe his soul is present so they can hear him ??

I mean its clear cut to me sxb and tbh sxb i don't follow saudi salafis cause i believe they are not sincere and exhibit cultish like behaviour to defend the current saudi state... but i mean asking for help to the dead ?? this is a whole different story and i am not convinced this is anything which the salaf tabieen tabiun endorsed.

I don't know what he means by soul of a dead is present, but we have many hadith confirming that the dead do hear


1) First what was narrated in al-Bukhari and Muslim about the dead that the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask …" .

2) The Hadith where the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) addressed the dead of disbelievers in the battle of Badr three days after their death: "When he halted at the edge of the well, he addressed the corpses of the Quraish infidels by their names and their fathers' names, "O so-and-so, son of so-and-so and O so-and-so, son of so-and-so! Would it have pleased you if you had obeyed Allah and His Apostle? We have found true what our Lord promised us. Have you too found true what your Lord promised you? " 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You are speaking to bodies that have no souls!" Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, you do not hear, what I say better than they do" .

3) The Hadith reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim that "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) told Muslims to greet the dwellers of graves and he said: 'Say: peace be upon you all, O inhabitants of the graves, among the believers and the Muslims. Verily we will, Allah willing, be united with you'" .
The scholars say: 'This address is to them, and we do not talk to people who can not hear'

Can a dead person hear

Explore the ongoing debate about whether the dead can hear the living, grounded in Islamic teachings from the Quran and Hadith. Key verses suggest that the dead cannot be made to hear, while several Hadiths imply that they might, particularly during moments of burial or remembrance. Scholars are...

www.islamweb.net

4) There's also order to send salaams to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) specifically, and that there are angels who convey our salaams to him.

 

[المهندس]

imam ahmad 780-855
imam ibn qudamah 1147-1223
imam nawawi 1233-1277
ottoman empire 1299-1922
imam Mahmud Al-Alusi 1802- 1854
Shukri Al-Alusi 1856 - 1924

Imam mahmud and his son lived during the late stages of the ottoman empire, they also came after miaw and his dawah. What i was able to gather about him is that he was also influenced by the dawah of miaw, even if we assume he wasn't, we've ulama who preceded him by centuries permitting tawassul with the deceased. Whose understanding should we prioritise walaal ?

What about other scholars from the ottomans ? did you look into them ?




Tawassul is wasilah. in the hadith of the blind man the Prophet peace be upon him is teaching the blind man a dua where he uses the Prophet himself as a wasilah so as to have his need fulfilled. This hadith was acted upon by sahaba and their students, all the major ulama etc.

From Uthman bin Hunayf [who narrated] that a blind man came to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and said: “Supplicate to Allah to cure me.” [The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -] said, “If you wish I will supplicate [for you] and if you wish you may be patient and that will be better for you.” He said, “Supplicate to Him.” [The narrator] said, “So the Prophet instructed him to make ablution (wudhu`), perfect his ablution and then supplicate with this prayer:
‘O Allah, I ask You and approuch You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. [O Muhammad,] I approach my Lord through you in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me’”.





Can you please explain to me how that is relevant to this discussion about tawassul ? does being alive or dead make a difference with regards to believing that anyone besides Allah is in control ? There's a big misunderstanding on your part which is making you interpret this issue all together differently. You're looking for evidences that "seem" to validate the view you have of tawassul.

There're major ulama who allowed tawassul with the deceased starting with the Prophet peace be upon him, this fact alone should make one to stop and reflect on this issue properly.




I don't know what he means by soul of a dead is present, but we have many hadith confirming that the dead do hear


1) First what was narrated in al-Bukhari and Muslim about the dead that the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) said: "When (Allah's) slave is put in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their footsteps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask …" .

2) The Hadith where the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) addressed the dead of disbelievers in the battle of Badr three days after their death: "When he halted at the edge of the well, he addressed the corpses of the Quraish infidels by their names and their fathers' names, "O so-and-so, son of so-and-so and O so-and-so, son of so-and-so! Would it have pleased you if you had obeyed Allah and His Apostle? We have found true what our Lord promised us. Have you too found true what your Lord promised you? " 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! You are speaking to bodies that have no souls!" Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, you do not hear, what I say better than they do" .

3) The Hadith reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim that "The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) told Muslims to greet the dwellers of graves and he said: 'Say: peace be upon you all, O inhabitants of the graves, among the believers and the Muslims. Verily we will, Allah willing, be united with you'" .
The scholars say: 'This address is to them, and we do not talk to people who can not hear'

Can a dead person hear

Explore the ongoing debate about whether the dead can hear the living, grounded in Islamic teachings from the Quran and Hadith. Key verses suggest that the dead cannot be made to hear, while several Hadiths imply that they might, particularly during moments of burial or remembrance. Scholars are...

www.islamweb.net

4) There's also order to send salaams to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) specifically, and that there are angels who convey our salaams to him.

you claim a whole group of muslims (salafis) do not understand tawheed and shirk.

This is a very big statement and i would even say this is some sort of takfir are we to take tawheed knowledge from you then??

Bare in mind this i disagree with other aspects of the salafi dawah but in no way shape or form im i going to say they misunderstood tawheed and shirk.



I bought quotes from hanafis, hanbalis, maliiks hadiths, ayat of quran explaing duaa and what worship is, invoking is worship.



Sxb it seems to me you have an agenda against miaw and any scholar which quotes or praises him you disregard. You claim imam shawanki retracted his statement by assumption this shows a hidden agenda

You claim i am getting quotes to back up my view points, i am getting quotes which make the most sense and are in accordance with quran and sunnah.

I bought that website islamweb which said none of the madhab allowed tawassul to deceased by here you are saying the complete opposite.

May Allah grant you mercy and bless your life sxb but im gonna end it here

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

you claim a whole group of muslims (salafis) do not understand tawheed and shirk.

This is a very big statement and i would even say this is some sort of takfir are we to take tawheed knowledge from you then??

Bare in mind this i disagree with other aspects of the salafi dawah but in no way shape or form im i going to say they misunderstood tawheed and shirk.

I said they have a different understanding of tawheed & shirk, in my other thread & posts here i've supported my claim with Quran & hadith, actual opinions from of ulama, showing where they went wrong. In fact i've also highlighted your mistakes esp when you defined intercession as grave worship etc @ReerVanCadde even tried reasoning with you regarding it

The reason you don't see an issue with their understanding is you've adopted it without even studying the issues properly.

I bought quotes from hanafis, hanbalis, maliiks hadiths, ayat of quran explaing duaa and what worship is, invoking is worship.

You cited them without understanding and interpreted them in your own way, not even realising how they relate to tawassul. Take for example the statement of Shaykh Fakhruddin Abu Sa’d ‘where he says: “Whoever thinks that a dead person has any control on matters besides Allah, and he believes in it, then he is a Kafir”

I asked you is there a difference of having such a belief with those that are alive as opposed to those who're dead ? There's no difference at all as kufr is kufr it doesn't matter whether you ascribe such a belief with the living or dead. The important point i wanted you to understand is that it's the intention and belief of an individual behind their actions what matters.

The ruling of that statement will not change if i replace "dead" with "living" meaning it's the belief that a person ascribes to the dead & living that will determine whether they've committed kufr or not. So if the belief goes against the deen then obviously it's rejected but when it doesn't it's allowed

"Whoever thinks that a dead person has no control on matters except Allah, and he believes in it, is he a kafir? "

Sxb it seems to me you have an agenda against miaw and any scholar which quotes or praises him you disregard. You claim imam shawanki retracted his statement by assumption this shows a hidden agenda

shawkani allows tawassul not only with the Prophet peace be upon him but also with the pious (as albani affirms), while miaw views this as shirk akbar. Now just ask yourself do you think shawakani would praise him for having such an opinion ? i've a hidden agenda for believing that shawakani most probably would've retracted his praise after finding out miaw's views on tawassul ?

My opposition to the teachings of miaw esp when it concerns tawheed & shirk is based on evidence from the Quran & Sunnah as what he teaches goes against the revealed texts. Claiming that makkan pagans who worshipped 360 gods had tawheed in Allah's Lordship, people who believed that Allah couldn't resurrect them, that He had daughters who were angels etc ie committed shirk in Allah's Lordship. Declaring muslims to be mushriks and justifying their blood etc why should i follow such a person ?

You claim i am getting quotes to back up my view points, i am getting quotes which make the most sense and are in accordance with quran and sunnah.

I bought that website islamweb which said none of the madhab allowed tawassul to deceased by here you are saying the complete opposite.

May Allah grant you mercy and bless your life sxb but im gonna end it here

Is it permissible to make Tawassul via the status of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, and his high rank in the sight of Allaah, citing as evidence the story where Aadam (Adam), may Allaah exalt his mention, made Tawassul with the status of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam, and Allaah accepted it from him?

In fact, scholars differ on the ruling about making Tawassul through the Prophet

himself, his status or his right. Most of the Maaliki, Shaafi‘i and Hanbali scholars of Fiqh (jurisprudence) are of the opinion that it is permissible. They supported this opinion with Hadeeths that cannot stand as evidence, though, as they are either weak or fabricated. They also supported their opinion using texts of general meaning from the Quran and Saheeh (authentic) Hadeeths that are not clear evidence for the permissibility of this type of Tawassul.

Making Tawassul via the status of the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam

Explore the permissibility of making Tawassul through the Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam. While some scholars, including those from the Maaliki, Shaafii, and Hanbali schools, support Tawassul citing weak or fabricated Hadith, others argue against it due to a lack of authentic...

www.islamweb.net

Just imagine even though they confirm & affirm that most of the shafi, malik and hanbali allow tawassul with Prophet peace be upon him they claim that they based it on weak & fabricated hadeeth. Majority of ulama from the 3 schools basing their opinion on weak or fabricated hadith ? i mean what are the chances that thousands of scholars simply not having sound/sahih/strong evidence for allowing tawassul ?


Like i told before you've not studied this issue in depth for you to conclude which position is correct etc

I pray that Allah SWT increases us in understanding of the deen and forgive us for our shortcomings

Allahuma Ameen

 

[مسافر]

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ​

A better question to ask AdoonkaAlle is what comes first in Authority, The Quran or Hadith/Sunnah. You've quoted hadiths without fully understanding the fiqh. So my question is this, which is of superior authority to you. The Quran or the Hadiths?

Would you do something that you think the Hadith permits you to do if the Quran forbids it?

 

[مسافر]

Iyo @AdoonkaAlle , do you know the conditions which differentiate between permitted and impermissible tawassul ?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ​

A better question to ask AdoonkaAlle is what comes first in Authority, The Quran or Hadith/Sunnah. You've quoted hadiths without fully understanding the fiqh. So my question is this, which is of superior authority to you. The Quran or the Hadiths?

Every muslim knows that the Quran is the most authoritative source, followed by the sunnah. I find it rather surprising that you would claim that since i've not understood the fiqh this somehow means that i'm prioritising the hadith above Quran ? how did you come to this conclusion ? is there anything from my posts that establishes this ? if yes, would you mind indicating which post(s) etc ?

Would you do something that you think the Hadith permits you to do if the Quran forbids it?

Would you care to give to an example of the above ?

Iyo @AdoonkaAlle , do you know the conditions which differentiate between permitted and impermissible tawassul ?

Pls do enlighten me sxb

 

[مسافر]

I don't want to prolong this thread any longer. I strongly advise you akhi to listen carefully to this debate regarding this matter with a sincere heart.

[Part 1]
[Part 2]

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I don't want to prolong this thread any longer. I strongly advise you akhi to listen carefully to this debate regarding this matter with a sincere heart.

[Part 1]
[Part 2]

Then why seek me out if you didn't want to have a discussion ?

 

[مسافر]

﷽
I see your love for the prophet has transgressed into shirk and it's incumbent upon me to say something. I find what Ustadh Abdurahman said satisfactory and not necessary to copy and paste the proofs mentioned over here.​

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

﷽
I see your love for the prophet has transgressed into shirk and it's incumbent upon me to say something. I find what Ustadh Abdurahman said satisfactory and not necessary to copy and paste the proofs mentioned over here.​

I wonder what your views are regarding ulama such as , imam ahmad, imam nawawi, ibn qudama, and all the other countless who not only allowed tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon him but recommended it ? so were they committing shirk bal ii sheeg sxb?

 

[مسافر]

I wonder what your views are regarding ulama such as , imam ahmad, imam nawawi, ibn qudama, and all the other countless who not only allowed tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon him but recommended it ? so were they committing shirk bal ii sheeg sxb?

I advise you, my brother, to go beyond just your 3/4 sheikhs. For example, one of the best explanations of the Blind Man Hadith and widely accepted is written by Sheikh Al-bani in his book: at-Tawassul Anwaa‘uhu wa Ahkaamuhu

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I advise you, my brother, to go beyond just your 3/4 sheikhs. For example, one of the best explanations of the Blind Man Hadith and widely accepted is written by Sheikh Al-bani in his book: at-Tawassul Anwaa‘uhu wa Ahkaamuhu

3/4 sheikhs ? war sxb are you not aware the status of those scholars that i mentioned ? is albani's understanding better than them ?

 

[مسافر]

3/4 sheikhs ? war sxb are you not aware the status of those scholars that i mentioned ? is albani's understanding better than them ?

smh that's not how Islam work, we take the Ijma3. There is no Ijma3 on what Imaam Nawawi, Iman Ahmad said regarding this matter.

To cut a long story short, The videos linked mention the conditions and the evidence. there are 3 conditions when seeking help from other than Allah.

The person you're seeking help from is:
1. alive in this world
2. with you in this world
3. able to do what you ask

Is the Prophet (CS) alive in this world?
Is the Prophet (CS) with you in this world?
Is the Prophet able to do what you ask? (By the permission of Allah)

Therefore it's prohibited to seek help from Prophet Muhammed (CS)

My car broke down, can I seek help from a mechanic?

Is the mechanic alive in this world?
Is the mechanic with you in this world?
Is the mechanic able to fix your car? (By the permission of Allah)

Therefore it's allowed to seek help from the mechanic

 

[مسافر]

Correction
Is the Prophet able to do what you ask? He's dead (CS)