Wahhabism or Slander ?

[Ismail99]

By any chance what is the source of this Hadith , what is the isnaad and what has it been graded as in Hassan, sahih, Hassan sahih daeef etc

I don't know but it doesn't matter cause it doesn't say you can ask help fron the dead

 

[المهندس]

It's not about tawassul and chain takfir those are just some of the issues, all of their problems arise as a result of having a different understanding of tawheed & shirk. They then use this understanding of theirs to interpret the Quran & Sunnah and issue rulings based thereafter.

It's their understanding which forces them to accuse muslims of calling to other than Allah i.e shirk akbar when they seem them performing tawassul at the grave sites, they refer to them as grave worshippers




That's the statement of imam nawawi advising people what to say when visiting the Prophet's peace be upon him grave.

If the disagreement salafis had with tawassul been simply about the choice of words or even transgressing the limits then they would not have problems with it to begin with. They would've differentiated between the lawful & unlawful tawassul with the deceased but they don't, ask yourself when was the last time you listened to a talk by salafi where they mention this ?. There is a reason why wrote the following as a response to @ReerVanCadde




The response you gave is exactly what salafis teach ie tawassul with the deceased is shirk akbar laakin when they're confronted with daleel showing that this was a matter that is prescribed and classical ulama allowed it they're left in a difficult positions and the only way to reconcile is to read in their bias into the statements of the classical scholars.

When salafis talk about valid tawassul they only allow it with the living anything else for them is shirk or not allowed. Imam ahmad acted on the hadith of seeking help from angles when one is lost etc

Imaam Ahmad by his son ‘Abdullah; the wording of which is as follows: ‘Abdullah the son of Imam Ahmad said: "I heard my father say: 'I performed Hajj five times, twice riding and three times walking, or twice walking and three times riding. I lost my way during one Hajj and I was walking, so I began to call out: O slaves of Allah show me the way. I kept doing that until I found the road.' or as my father had said."

Just let it sink for a sec, a scholar the likes of imam ahmad is calling on Angles to help him, can we even claim that he's unaware of what invoking other than Allah means ?

This is why i mentioned that it's the mis-understanding of salafis regarding issues of tawheed & shirk which is leading them to accuse muslims of shirk, calling them grave worshippers etc. I mean how can you know if an individual is performing the lawful tawassul with the deceased when you don't view such tawassul to be valid at all ? do you see how easy it becomes to then issue takfir etc


Biggest issues from classification of tawheed

1. Separating between ilah and rabb
2. Affirming tawheed rububiyah to makan pagans
3. Claiming that majority of bani adam are equal in affirming tawheed rububiyyah

With due i'll can explain a bit more in detail inshallah

Sxb what about this hadith, ok you explained to me aspects of tawassul are allowed but this hadith clearly states do not pray towards the grave.

Also this statement from Abu hanifa needs to be explained

Imam Abu Hanifa, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ أَنْ يَدْعُوَ اللَّهَ إلَّا بِهِ
No one should call upon Allah except by Him.
Source: al-Durr al-Mukhtār 6/396

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not sit on graves, or pray towards them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 972)

I mean i can understand the disagreement with aspects of chain takfir and the interpretation of khurooj against ruler the saudi salafis use but i have a hard time digesting that praying to deceased comes under tawassul it doesn't make sense.

Like brother in the video you sent said its the takfir in Durar as Saniyah but the Dawah of Abdul Wahhab in regards to tawheed vs shirk i see nothing wrong with, i agree with that brothers overall statement.


Another quote from a shafii scholar


bn Khuzaymah writes:
أَفَلَيْسَ الْعِلْمُ مُحِيطًا أَنَّهُ غَيْرُ جَائِزٍ أَنْ يَأْمُرَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِالتَّعَوُّذِ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ هَلْ سَمِعْتُمْ عَالِمًا يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ الدَّاعِيأَعُوذُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِ اللَّهِ أَوْ يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ أَعُوذُ بِالصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةِ أَوْ أَعُوذُ بِعَرَفَاتٍ وَمِنًى مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ هَذَا لَا يَقُولُهُ وَلَا يُجِيزُ الْقَوْلَ بِهِمُسْلِمٌ يَعْرِفُ دِينَ اللَّهِ مُحَالٌ أَنْ يَسْتَعِيذَ مُسْلِمٌ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ
Is it not understood that it is not possible the Prophet (ṣ) commanded seeking refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation? Have you heard a scholar permit a supplicant to say: I seek refuge in the Ka’bah from the evil Allah has created? Or permit one to say: I seek refuge in Safa and Marwah, or I seek refuge in Arafat and Mina from the evil Allah has created? This would not be said or permitted by a Muslim who knows the religion of Allah. It is impossible for a Muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation.
Source: al-Tawḥīd 1/401

Allahu Alam

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

The hadith is saying they're here and can help me I don't need to see them.

Please do show me where the hadith states that the angels are "present" when they're being sought for help ? the condition stipulated is that the one help is sought from has to be "present" before the one seeking help. I simply asked how this is possible with the angels ? since they're invisible there's no way of knowing if they're there with you when you're seeking their help ?

Most importantly the reason why i brought that hadith that imam ahmed acted upon was to show that merely calling or asking for help other than Allah isn't shirk as salafi claim. They claim that invoking, calling, beseeching or seeking help from other than Allah is shirk akbar, the reason being that those actions are dua. Dua is form of worship so when one makes to dua other than Allah they commit shirk akbar.

In the hadith we clearly see that imam ahmad is calling/seeking help from the slaves of Allah, does this mean he was worshipping them ? The imam's action clearly without a doubt disproves the claim of salafis that when a muslim merely calls upon the aid of other than Allah he/she is committing shirk.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

You seem knowledgeable so I know you know they were not sufi. You can only fool the layman.

You claimed i was sufi on the basis of my position regarding tawassul with the deceased etc to which i responded by stating you should equally call those ulama sufi as they all permitted it. Unlike you i don't brand sufis in one group as they're quite diverse, most importantly alot of classical imam's like al jilan were not only sufi but were leaders among the sufis.

Walaal you need to read up more on islamic history so as to gain a better understanding.

 

[Hali]

You claimed i was sufi on the basis of my position regarding tawassul with the deceased etc to which i responded by stating you should equally call those ulama sufi as they all permitted it. Unlike you i don't brand sufis in one group as they're quite diverse, most importantly alot of classical imam's like al jilan were not only sufi but were leaders among the sufis.

Walaal you need to read up more on islamic history so as to gain a better understanding.

Point twelve on the book of the creed by imam al barbaharee
Debating arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubt into the heart. Even if the person reaches the truth and the sunnah.
I didn’t claim you were Sufi regarding tawassul, I’m aware of the positions of imam Ahmad and co.
Calling upon other than Allah whereby they be angels or prophets is shirk thinking they can help you alone Is still shirk

Ibn Abbas reported: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, when he said to me, “Young man, I will teach you some words. Be mindful of Allah and he will protect you. Be mindful of Allah and you will find him before you. If you ask, ask from Allah. If you seek help, seek help from Allah. Know that if the nations gathered together to benefit you, they will not benefit you unless Allah has decreed it for you. And if the nations gathered together to harm you, they will not harm you unless Allah has decreed it for you. The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried.”

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Sxb what about this hadith, ok you explained to me aspects of tawassul are allowed but this hadith clearly states do not pray towards the grave.

Also this statement from Abu hanifa needs to be explained

Imam Abu Hanifa, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ أَنْ يَدْعُوَ اللَّهَ إلَّا بِهِ
No one should call upon Allah except by Him.
Source: al-Durr al-Mukhtār 6/396

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not sit on graves, or pray towards them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 972)

I mean i can understand the disagreement with aspects of chain takfir and the interpretation of khurooj against ruler the saudi salafis use but i have a hard time digesting that praying to deceased comes under tawassul it doesn't make sense.

Like brother in the video you sent said its the takfir in Durar as Saniyah but the Dawah of Abdul Wahhab in regards to tawheed vs shirk i see nothing wrong with, i agree with that brothers overall statement.

You need to understand that salafis have a different understanding when it comes tawheed & shirk and because of this they interpret actions differently. Just like the example i gave above of imam ahmad seeking help from the slaves of Allah. As you're aware they consider such actions to be shirk because according to them when an individual does that he/she is worshipping whomever they're seeking help from etc

You need to ask yourself why didn't the ulama who allowed tawassul with the deceased view it as a form of worship to the deceased ? why do you view it as a form of worship ? what's the difference ? where is the worship coming from ?

I've yet to meet a muslim who says that they worship the deceased, have you ?saying that however i agree that people transgress the limits when it comes to tawassul , you'll find people doing haram, bidah things near the graves etc but unless you investigate and have conclusive evidence that shirk has occurred you simply can't claim that anyone who visit a graves and seeks the intercession of said individual that they've committed shirk and that takfir should be declared upon them.


The brother doesn't discuss nor mention the reasons for the takfir, i think you agree with me that it didn't arise from nothing ? The moment you realise the underlying reason for their takfir is when the issue will become clear and have a better understanding what lead them to declare muslims as mushriks etc.

Also this statement from Abu hanifa needs to be explained

Imam Abu Hanifa, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ أَنْ يَدْعُوَ اللَّهَ إلَّا بِهِ
No one should call upon Allah except by Him.
Source: al-Durr al-Mukhtār 6/396 .

I've brought the hadith where imam ahmad called/sought the help from slaves of Allah, from this do you believe that imam ahmad had the same understanding to modern salafis when it comes to calling/seeking other than Allah ? there's a huge difference how imam interprets & understands calling others beside Allah and how it's understood by salafis today. Had it been similar then imam ahmad would have never acted on that hadith .

Another quote from a shafii scholar


bn Khuzaymah writes:
أَفَلَيْسَ الْعِلْمُ مُحِيطًا أَنَّهُ غَيْرُ جَائِزٍ أَنْ يَأْمُرَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِالتَّعَوُّذِ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ هَلْ سَمِعْتُمْ عَالِمًا يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ الدَّاعِيأَعُوذُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِ اللَّهِ أَوْ يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ أَعُوذُ بِالصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةِ أَوْ أَعُوذُ بِعَرَفَاتٍ وَمِنًى مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ هَذَا لَا يَقُولُهُ وَلَا يُجِيزُ الْقَوْلَ بِهِمُسْلِمٌ يَعْرِفُ دِينَ اللَّهِ مُحَالٌ أَنْ يَسْتَعِيذَ مُسْلِمٌ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ
Is it not understood that it is not possible the Prophet (ṣ) commanded seeking refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation? Have you heard a scholar permit a supplicant to say: I seek refuge in the Ka’bah from the evil Allah has created? Or permit one to say: I seek refuge in Safa and Marwah, or I seek refuge in Arafat and Mina from the evil Allah has created? This would not be said or permitted by a Muslim who knows the religion of Allah. It is impossible for a Muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation.

Can i ask you what has this got to do with what we're discussing ?

 

[Ismail99]

Please do show me where the hadith states that the angels are "present" when they're being sought for help ? the condition stipulated is that the one help is sought from has to be "present" before the one seeking help. I simply asked how this is possible with the angels ? since they're invisible there's no way of knowing if they're there with you when you're seeking their help ?

Most importantly the reason why i brought that hadith that imam ahmed acted upon was to show that merely calling or asking for help other than Allah isn't shirk as salafi claim. They claim that invoking, calling, beseeching or seeking help from other than Allah is shirk akbar, the reason being that those actions are dua. Dua is form of worship so when one makes to dua other than Allah they commit shirk akbar.

In the hadith we clearly see that imam ahmad is calling/seeking help from the slaves of Allah, does this mean he was worshipping them ? The imam's action clearly without a doubt disproves the claim of salafis that when a muslim merely calls upon the aid of other than Allah he/she is committing shirk.

It says they're on earth so they're present

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Point twelve on the book of the creed by imam al barbaharee
Debating arguing and disputing are innovations which throw doubt into the heart. Even if the person reaches the truth and the sunnah.
I didn’t claim you were Sufi regarding tawassul, I’m aware of the positions of imam Ahmad and co.
Calling upon other than Allah whereby they be angels or prophets is shirk thinking they can help you alone Is still shirk

Then on what grounds did you declare me to be a sufi ?

Calling upon other than Allah whereby they be angels or prophets is shirk

When imam ahmad calls and seeks help from the slaves of Allah , was he committing shirk ?

thinking they can help you alone Is still shirk

Of course the true help is from Allah and Him alone, created beings when they help us in whatever capacity they're capable of are only a means no one disputes this. If you don't mind me asking do you think that i believe that ?

Ibn Abbas reported: I was riding behind the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, when he said to me, “Young man, I will teach you some words. Be mindful of Allah and he will protect you. Be mindful of Allah and you will find him before you. If you ask, ask from Allah. If you seek help, seek help from Allah. Know that if the nations gathered together to benefit you, they will not benefit you unless Allah has decreed it for you. And if the nations gathered together to harm you, they will not harm you unless Allah has decreed it for you. The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried.”

I agree with it completely now the question remains is , do you believe that when imam ahmad sought help from the slaves of Allah he was going against this hadith ?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

It says they're on earth so they're present

Walaal you need to understand by what is meant by "present" as it's not referring to being on earth but specifically being at the location near the one who is seeking help

that the one whose help is sought is alive and present, and that he is able to do that thing.

The same conditions applies to when seeking help from humans, are you going to claim that by present means here on earth as well ?

 

[Ismail99]

Walaal you need to understand by what is meant by "present" as it's not referring to being on earth but specifically being at the location near the one who is seeking help



The same conditions applies to when seeking help from humans, are you going to claim that by present means here on earth as well ?

The report mentioned states that there is a type of angels, who are alive, in the sense of a life that is natural and appropriate for them. Allah has put them on earth to help those who are lost and guide them to the correct route, so whoever asks them for help is asking for help from a created being regarding something that he is able to do, and Allah has created him for this role

 

[Hali]

Then on what grounds did you declare me to be a sufi ?



When imam ahmad calls and seeks help from the slaves of Allah , was he committing shirk ?



Of course the true help is from Allah and Him alone, created beings when they help us in whatever capacity they're capable of are only a means no one disputes this. If you don't mind me asking do you think that i believe that ?



I agree with it completely now the question remains is , do you believe that when imam ahmad sought help from the slaves of Allah he was going against this hadith ?

I don’t understand...what is it that you believe.
Maybe I was hasty in my judgment in calling you a sufi but it seems that you were going down that route.
Are you challenging Imam Ahmeds position or agreeing with it ?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I don’t understand...what is it that you believe.
Maybe I was hasty in my judgment in calling you a sufi but it seems that you were going down that route.
Are you challenging Imam Ahmeds position or agreeing with it ?

After re-reading properly the quote i kind of understand why you reacted

You see for salafis this act of seeking help from the deceased, angels etc goes against their understanding and the problem facing them is that we've classical ulama from all the madhabs permitting actions which they consider to be shirk akbar or bidah.

laakin what i meant to say was the following, the way i formulated it above was the issue

You see for salafis this act of seeking intercession with the deceased, help from angels etc goes against their understanding and the problem facing them is that we've classical ulama from all the madhabs permitting actions which they consider to be shirk akbar or bidah.

But then again you stated

Calling upon other than Allah whereby they be angels or prophets is shirk

Do you mean to say eg that when imam ahmad calls and seeks help from the slaves of Allah , he was committing shirk ? what do you mean by that statement if you don't mind me asking

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

The report mentioned states that there is a type of angels, who are alive, in the sense of a life that is natural and appropriate for them. Allah has put them on earth to help those who are lost and guide them to the correct route, so whoever asks them for help is asking for help from a created being regarding something that he is able to do, and Allah has created him for this role

Yes they're present here on earth but there's no way for us to know when they're present with us in a specific location here on earth. How do you know that they are exactly where you are ?

The hadith doesn't mention anything about the location of the angels. They maybe physically absent from your location but be able to hear and help you, stipulating a condition that the helper must be present with you at the time of your need isn't something that is feasible when it relates to angels as we can't see them to determine that fact.

 

[reer]

what is this murun about? making dua to dead people mudug style? or tawsul through the dead? @Xiniinyo

 

[Hali]

After re-reading properly the quote i kind of understand why you reacted



laakin what i meant to say was the following, the way i formulated it above was the issue



But then again you stated


Do you mean to say eg that when imam ahmad calls and seeks help from the slaves of Allah , he was committing shirk ? what do you mean by that statement if you don't mind me asking

No it’s not shirk. They would just be a wasilah.

 

[Ismail99]

what is this murun about? making dua to dead people mudug style? or tawsul through the dead? @Xiniinyo

Not sure but looks like he's saying seeking help from jiilaani or others are caadi

 

[المهندس]

You need to understand that salafis have a different understanding when it comes tawheed & shirk and because of this they interpret actions differently. Just like the example i gave above of imam ahmad seeking help from the slaves of Allah. As you're aware they consider such actions to be shirk because according to them when an individual does that he/she is worshipping whomever they're seeking help from etc

You need to ask yourself why didn't the ulama who allowed tawassul with the deceased view it as a form of worship to the deceased ? why do you view it as a form of worship ? what's the difference ? where is the worship coming from ?

I've yet to meet a muslim who says that they worship the deceased, have you ?saying that however i agree that people transgress the limits when it comes to tawassul , you'll find people doing haram, bidah things near the graves etc but unless you investigate and have conclusive evidence that shirk has occurred you simply can't claim that anyone who visit a graves and seeks the intercession of said individual that they've committed shirk and that takfir should be declared upon them.


The brother doesn't discuss nor mention the reasons for the takfir, i think you agree with me that it didn't arise from nothing ? The moment you realise the underlying reason for their takfir is when the issue will become clear and have a better understanding what lead them to declare muslims as mushriks etc.




I've brought the hadith where imam ahmad called/sought the help from slaves of Allah, from this do you believe that imam ahmad had the same understanding to modern salafis when it comes to calling/seeking other than Allah ? there's a huge difference how imam interprets & understands calling others beside Allah and how it's understood by salafis today. Had it been similar then imam ahmad would have never acted on that hadith .







Can i ask you what has this got to do with what we're discussing ?

Sxb that hadith of the prophet is irrefutable i mean it clearly states

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not sit on graves, or pray towards them.” (Narrated by Muslim, 972)

Also why is imam abu hanifa saying only call upon Allah if all madhabs allowed tawassul to deceased..

bn Khuzaymah writes:
أَفَلَيْسَ الْعِلْمُ مُحِيطًا أَنَّهُ غَيْرُ جَائِزٍ أَنْ يَأْمُرَ النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِالتَّعَوُّذِ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ هَلْ سَمِعْتُمْ عَالِمًا يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ الدَّاعِيأَعُوذُ بِالْكَعْبَةِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِ اللَّهِ أَوْ يُجِيزُ أَنْ يَقُولَ أَعُوذُ بِالصَّفَا وَالْمَرْوَةِ أَوْ أَعُوذُ بِعَرَفَاتٍ وَمِنًى مِنْ شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ هَذَا لَا يَقُولُهُ وَلَا يُجِيزُ الْقَوْلَ بِهِمُسْلِمٌ يَعْرِفُ دِينَ اللَّهِ مُحَالٌ أَنْ يَسْتَعِيذَ مُسْلِمٌ بِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ مِنْ شَرِّ خَلْقِهِ
Is it not understood that it is not possible the Prophet (ṣ) commanded seeking refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation? Have you heard a scholar permit a supplicant to say: I seek refuge in the Ka’bah from the evil Allah has created? Or permit one to say: I seek refuge in Safa and Marwah, or I seek refuge in Arafat and Mina from the evil Allah has created? This would not be said or permitted by a Muslim who knows the religion of Allah. It is impossible for a Muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from the evil of His creation.
Source: al-Tawḥīd 1/401

"it is impossible for a muslim to seek refuge in the creation of Allah from evil of his creation" - What does this mean ?

Bare in mind this is a direct student of imam bukhari who lived in 8/9th century?

I mean how can i dispute this ??

 

[المهندس]

also walaal check this website regarding tawassul its not islamqa because i know islamqa do not specify certain details and since its run from saudi it might have a bit of biasness towards it ( i have nothing against islamqa btw infact i am always reading on there)

Permissibility of Tawassul

Explore the permissibility of Tawassul in Islam, including the views of notable scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and others. Tawassul, or seeking nearness to Allah through intermediaries, is categorized into permissible and impermissible types. Scholars widely agree that invoking Allah by His...

www.islamweb.org

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

No it’s not shirk. They would just be a wasilah.

Do you mean to say that calling upon angels is wasilah, If yes then why did you say it was shirk ?

 

[Hali]

Do you mean to say that calling upon angels is wasilah, If yes then why did you say it was shirk ?

No calling upon other people to help you is a wasilah.