Why I Now Support Somaliland Independence/Ictiraaf

[Karim]

Exactly if they want to go their own then fine

the term deserve is vague i mean no deserves anything, laakin we had prior recognition before, fought a war for self presevation and won, formed our own political identity, also we dont have any representation in the wider somali government which means we should have our own state to protect our own interests

My response was to @Lander not you but I'm sure your argument is weaker than you think.

• "We had prior recognition"... That's not true. British Somaliland achieved independence in June, 1960 but was never recognised as a country by the UN. On the day of independence they raised the blue Somali flag created in 1954 which proves their thirst for union with Italian Somaliland.
• "Fought war for self preservation" what war?! You didn't solely fight the Somali government, all major Somali clans fought the regime: USC, SSDF, SPM and SNM. Yours was just one of many rebels and you didn't "win" because SNM didn't rule a single district in the north when Siad Barre fled Mogadishu on 26th of January, 1991.
• "We don't have a representation in the wider Somalia government"... Who's the Senate speaker?! Who's the Deputy PM?! Who's the finance Minister?! Who's the top judge of the court?! Who's the head of the central bank?! Who's the head of the Somali development Bank?! Are you joking?!

 

[TheLand]

Musa Bihi was the issue almost had the whole sool integrated fully with the Ainobo peace talk with Ali Khalif to open the constitution and have a sit down again with everyone.

Bihi essentially ripped it off

If SL had won that war though Biixi would 1000% be re-elected. There is no denying that, so you’re welcome.

 

[peterpeter]

My response was to @Lander not you but I'm sure your argument is weaker than you think.

• "We had prior recognition"... That's not true. British Somaliland achieved independence in June, 1960 but was never recognised as a country by the UN. On the day of independence they raised the blue Somali flag created in 1954 which proves their thirst for union with Italian Somaliland.
• "Fought war for self preservation" what war?! You didn't solely fight the Somali government, all major Somali clans fought the regime: USC, SSDF, SPM and SNM. Yours was just one of many rebels and you didn't "win" because SNM didn't rule a single district in the north when Siad Barre fled Mogadishu on 26th of January, 1991.
• "We don't have a representation in the wider Somalia government"... Who's the Senate speaker?! Who's the Deputy PM?! Who's the finance Minister?! Who's the top judge of the court?! Who's the head of the central bank?! Who's the head of the Somali development Bank?! Are you joking?!

You're being very selective with your language it didn't have a UN seat due to how short its independence period was but It was recognised by 30 UN member states so its not as if there wasn't legitimacy to its existence.

And yes we did 'win' the war we had clear goals and most were achieved

• In 1991, Somaliland declared independence after the fall of Somalia's central government.
• The Somali National Movement (SNM), largely led by the Isaaq clan, defeated Siad Barre's forces in Somaliland territories.
• Somaliland focused on peace and reconciliation, with clan elders mediating agreements to end internal conflicts.
• A functioning government was established with democratic institutions like a parliament and presidency.
• Somaliland adopted a constitution through a referendum in 2001, reinforcing its independence claims.
• Unlike Somalia, Somaliland maintained peace and stability, disarming militias and avoiding extremist influence.

As for the war of self preservation it did win we were able to help remove Siad alongside like you said the other rebel groups and carve out our former lands once again whether Siad was there or not is irrevlant it was still his war the same way Assad is now gone doesn't mean it isn't his loss.

And so what yes there may be puppets who claim to represent us but doesnt mean it actually tangibly results in it us being helped, I know you're smarter than that so I want dignify the last part.

 

[SilentE1001]

SSC for sure needs representation and the reasons you gave are correct but in fairness Garowe is allowed to thrive because its still a part of the wider somalia system and isn't plagued with buuq

They don't need that.

The area needs law and order. With stability and safety no matter who provides this. The politicians might leave the blue flag but what can those who barely have any power in Xamar do for those thousands miles away.

The every day person in the region has not benefitted one cent from all the PR that came after this whole SSC KH was founded. The politicians class all got a big fat cheque whereas the person on the street got 0.

Did you know the main hospital in laascaanood was on payroll SL MoH up until the conflict started and now their appealing to the very same people who kept instigating and funding a war against SL to help pay their salaries they once got to deaf ears.

 

[Throughbred]

They don't need that.

The area needs law and order. With stability and safety no matter who provides this. The politicians might leave the blue flag but what can those who barely have any power in Xamar do for those thousands miles away.

The every day person in the region has not benefitted one cent from all the PR that came after this whole SSC KH was founded. The politicians class all got a big fat cheque whereas the person on the street got 0.

Did you know the main hospital in laascaanood was on payroll SL MoH up until the conflict started and now their appealing to the very same people who kept instigating and funding a war against SL to help pay their salaries they once got to deaf ears.

 

[NidarNidar]

 

[Karim]

I’m just saying leave the legal part out of it. Countries can and have seceded legally before. In terms of why it’s deserving, of course this is all just opinion and not an objective truth but I believe all people deserve to be able to decide their futures. I’m not suggesting that anyone that doesn’t want to be part of SL has to. It can be only Isaaq lands for all I care, but they have shown a commitment to free and fair elections, peace and development which is in stark contrast to Somalia. Being independent would allow them to further develop and not be held back by a useless corrupt bunker government.

Again, what is your argument against it? That nobody can ever secede no matter how shitty a country is?

My argument about this topic is fairly rational and it makes sense. It's one question.

1. is there a legal document that's signed and ratified at the time of union that indepth explains what constitutes to secede from the union?! No, It doesn't exist.

Other arguments from landers are purely laughable most of the time.

Like the arguments of:

• Genocide: Siad Barre massacred thousands in Mudug, Nugal, Galgaduud, L/Jubba, Banadir etc not just Burao and Hargeisa. He was a heavy handed maniac who committed multiple atrocities across the country. You cannot claim that you're the only one who felt his wrath.
• Political representation: since 1960, Northern clans (old British Somaliland) have held the PM post 5 times. They currently hold the senate, the deputy PM, Central bank governorship, top court judge, finance ministry etc. Even if the entire Northern clans suggest they want to be the president or the PM post for life the rest of Somali people would gladly accept it. But here you are moaning about political representation and playing the victim card.
• Somalia is a shithole: civil wars choke countries and keep them in darkness for decades, that's exactly what we are going through now, but as most countries with tumultuous past we'll move past this test soon inshallah. We'll struggle but eventually we'll succeed, those who abandon ship once things get tough are weak and fragile imo.
• We are better: you're not militarily stronger than SSC let alone the entire country of Somalia, your economy has dwindled and struggling at the moment, your GDP is comparable to Puntland and PL have bested SL in development indexes according to World Bank studies.

According to my own honest assessment; Somaliland is a project created by the Isaaq clan to escape the Darod-Hawiye duo who dominate the Somali political landscape.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

The fact of the matter is, I always supported it. My issue was with the inclusion of any people or lands that didn't want to be part of it, and that still remains a concern. The difference now is, I think they truly deserve it and it is unfair to deny it to them. The borders would of course need to be negotiated and no parts of Harti lands would be included. Aside from that, SL deserves independence and international recognition. After the recent 1 man 1 vote election that was fair and completely free of violence, and the former president MBA conceding and ready to hand over power, and the chaos that is Mogadishu, they have proven that they are mature enough to be afforded the right not to be held back by people who want nothing but war and corruption. It is clear that no progress is being made in Somalia nor will be made in the next few decades as shabaab terrorists haven't been defeated and now foreign troops including Ethiopians are entering the country in mass numbers. Soon Egyptians will also enter, along with the already present African Union troops who are going to remain in the country to 'safeguard' it. No matter who is in charge in Mogadishu, the cycle of war and corruption will continue as we have seen with Farmaajo and his replacement Gurguurte who continues to do the same things he accused his predecessor of. There is no shame in Somalia's current crop of leaders as they tried to destroy JL under Farmaajo and now Culusow. That being the case, is it really fair to hold back a people that want to leave this terrible situation? It is sadistic and mean spirited to hold back SL's development to the whims of corrupt former cab drivers and NGO assistant supervisors. Unlike other Somalis like my fellow PLers, SLers don't live all over Somalia from north to south, they live overwhelmingly in Waqooyi (and DDS in Ethiopia). It really makes no sense for them to continue to have anything to do with Somalia from a political or geographical standpoint. Their election and sincere commitment to their country crystalized my viewpoint. Please join me in supporting their cause.

P.S....Perhaps SL independence coming to fruition will wake up our stupid leaders in PL who still continue to believe in a silly notion of 'Somalia'. We've developed PL from scratch but have sat by and watched as 'presidents' from Farmaajo to Qoslaaye have sat in Villa Wardhiigley bunker seeking to undermine us at every turn. We brought this current version of federalism to Somalia but Somalis don't want it and they clearly don't want us. Let's face it, we are the most hated Somalis due in large part to the fact that we actually brought the current government to Mogadishu in 2006 using funds and soldiers paid from the proceeds of Bossaso port. Why do we continue to stick around? What is in it for us? We held a historic 1 man 1 vote election and we were cursed from the 'masjid' in Villa Somalia with destruction in 24 hours. Mogadishu's agents were paid to undermine our election and the 1 man 1 vote presidential election that Deni wanted to hold. If we had not been tied at the hip to such people, we would not have had to deal with any of that. I think SL independence will finally wake PLers up when they see SL developing and gleaming while we sit around waiting for Villa Somalia to release our aid funds every year. For those of you PLers who naively believe in Somaliweyn, just know that 90% of reer Somalia would love to see us leave as well, so the feeling is mutual. I have no doubt if a referendum was held today most Somalis would vote overwhelmingly to remove PL from Somalia. They do not want you and in fact they view you as the problem, and you should not want anything other than what is in your best interests. SLers are not your enemy, and they don't hate you. You do not even border each other. I say take everything north of Gaalkacyo and call it a day, but do not continue to stand in the way of SL's independence. After all, I believe that realistically the main thing that has been holding SL back from its freedom is PL and PLers. It is time to call a spade a spade and move on with our lives.

Somaliland is the country that gained independence in June 26th 1960. SL isn't claiming those lands they are part of that same defined territory. That's like saying Ethiopia claims Tigray when it's a part of Ethiopia. There's no claiming involved. You are trying to redefine SL based on your own demands but that's not up for discussion. SL will not give away territory to please MJ.

 

[TheLand]

Somaliland is the country that gained independence in June 26th 1960. SL isn't claiming those lands they are part of that same defined territory. That's like saying Ethiopia claims Tigray when it's a part of Ethiopia. There's no claiming involved. You are trying to redefine SL based on your own demands but that's not up for discussion. SL will not give away territory to please MJ.

View attachment 349312

View attachment 349311

Then go get it

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Then go get it

It's a part of Somaliland there's nothing to get.

 

[TheLand]

It's a part of Somaliland there's nothing to get.

It’s not though, so you can keep repeating the same propaganda. If it’s part of your country then go there if you can.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

It’s not though, so you can keep repeating the same propaganda. If it’s part of your country then go there if you can.

Those borders can't be changed by anyone sorry. It's just the way it goes in Africa. Independence borders are legal reality not tribal ones

 

[Rayaale]

If Somaliland breaks away then other regions will do the same,Puntland will be next which will be a disaster and we’ll have 15 mini countries

 

[TheLand]

Those borders can't be changed by anyone sorry. It's just the way it goes in Africa. Independence borders are legal reality not tribal ones

Again, you repeating nonsense isn’t going to change the fact that isn’t a border. You can cry till the cows come home.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Again, you repeating nonsense isn’t going to change the fact that isn’t a border. You can cry till the cows come home.

Somalia–Somaliland border - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The SL that gained independence 1960 never went away it's borders are still there and unchanged. It's a recogntion that it was illegally occupied and tied into an illegal act of union and a failed referendum.


That's how it works, not by where SL army in is in eerr 2024, that's random as hell way of thinking about things.

 

[TheLand]

Somalia–Somaliland border - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The SL that gained independence 1960 never went away it's borders are still there and unchanged. It's a recogntion that it was illegally occupied and tied into an illegal act of union and a failed referendum.


That's how it works, not by where SL army in is in eerr 2024, that's random as hell way of thinking about things.

Sorry buddy but what you and your friends discuss at the local marfish doesn’t matter to anyone else

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Sorry buddy but what you and your friends discuss at the local marfish doesn’t matter to anyone else

Somaliland legally never went away and it will just continue from 1960. There was no legal act of union and no valid referendum so the period 1960-2024 will be considered annexation against international law by Somalia Italiana. 64 years of foreign occupation will come to an end.

Somalia Italiana is trying to still occupy and claim eastern regions of Somaliland but they will be expelled.

 

[TheLand]

Somaliland legally never went away and it will just continue from 1960. There was no legal act of union and no valid referendum so the period 1960-2024 will be considered annexation against international law by Somalia Italia. 64 years of foreign occupation will come to an end.

You are lying to a brick wall sxb. I could care less what you make up.

 

[berberaboy66]

The SL (Isaaq) issue in Somalia is very clear and it always has been. Isaaq will never accept being third choice in Somalia. The z00 as presently constructed is a Hawiye-Darood standoff, where Isaaq have the same rights as an eelay. People would accept this (begrudgingly) if Somalia was actually a successful country. But it’s not and has never been at any point throughout its history. Not even close to one in fact.

This domination is not by human capital, not by influence, not even by military might. It’s simply by proximity and relations to the capital, Mogadishu. The influence of the British Somaliland clan groupings has been limited at best in the post-colonial era, often not receiving their fair share of political representation according to their power in the country. It still remains to this day that Somalia’s best period (early 1970s) also coincided with the largest representation share of Isaaq in Somalia’s top positions.

Apparently pointing stuff out like this means you are “arrogant”. You see this on every Somali social media, the apparent need to downplay every single Isaaq/SL achievement and take offence when any Isaaq/Lander acknowledges of their power within the country. You can even see it in this thread, @rayxn3 talks of this “superiority complex” completely unprovoked. The facts are Hiraab are completely ungovernable and Darood is really just MJ, everyone else is irrelevant. Waqooyi Galbeed has the highest HDI in the country of any region. Berbera Port is the best port in Sub-Saharan Africa for 2024. Elections are held, both local and presidential, intra-chimpouts are rare. If Somalia was a meritocracy, we would be rewarded adequately but unfortunately it isn’t and so Isaaq are right to complain about the unfairness. @Karim will tell you that some irrelevant individual positions means representation, who cares about speakers and banks and deputies if I can never be the top dog.

The intention isn’t and has never been to rule the country through Hargeisa though. Nobody wants mass amounts of foreigners on their lands thanks. You will always be welcome to come and live here and do trade individually but Somalis are tribal first and won’t allow themselves to be demographically replaced. Just fair representation. No more of this ‘Dir’ BS, Ugandishu politics, Hawiye vs Darood nonsense. Just reward the best and penalize the worst.

 

[berberaboy66]

1988 was what changed Somalia forever. Not 1991. Every clan saw what can happen when ‘foreign’ clan members with arms are allowed onto your tribal lands. Just ask Jubaland, SWS why they are defending themselves against SNA and they’ll tell you this exact thing. Ask yourselves why every Somaliland officer in Awdal is Samaroon and every Puntland officer in Sanaag is Warsangeli. You leave yourselves vulnerable to attacks and land grabs. I’ve never been one to cry xasuuq but the facts are facts, the army officers of Somalia mass exterminated (in the tens of thousands+) innocent individuals on their lands purely based on their clan while everyone else sat there and watched. This is the only time this has happened in Somalia’s history. RX was not the same, MJ early 80s was not the same, Las Anod was not the same either don’t let @Karim gaslight you.

Adopting a survival policy in Somalia after this is absolutely necessary. Separatism will always be the right thing to do as a clan as long as the other option is being third choice in a failed state. Separatism got us into the White House, separatism got us into 1-on-1 meetings with heads of states. The Somalidiid calcaal won’t matter as long as every East African country has his boots in Koonfuur. This policy also means you need to overextend influence beyond your borders regionally. Awdal is a non-negotiable as it prevents us from being encircled. Ruling Sool never really mattered. Ever. Ali Khalif Galaydh brought them in and they couldn’t believe their eyes. It was always just a flex, nobody gave AF about the colonial borders but the opportunity to do what they wanted in Darood lands with no pushback meant the leadership ran wild. The best case scenario would have always been to install a puppet leadership in Sool, we don’t need to control the people but what goes on in the lands. Now we’re in a worst-case scenario as SSC xooged our weapons and won’t negotiate on anything until we drop our separatist agenda, which will never happen as long as Somalia remains in its current state. SNA can now build a base in Fiqi Fuliye which by the current policy means war.

The problem is the leadership. They acknowledge this, but the $$$ is too much to turn down. That’s why we are now completely exposed to the enemy on one side, we don’t have our airspace rights and the port is now out of our control. No army to speak of, a complete brain drain in eastern Isaaqlands, and we recognized our closest ally’s biggest trade partner’s enemy. It literally cannot get any worse than now. With the future crop of potential leaders I trust that if we reach 2030, we can last for a loooong while later. The lack of 1955-1970 born politicians crippled us, that was supposed to be the post-SNM generation. People who looked to further the cause. PL had Deni, Gaas, Faroole from that era. Villa Somalia has Kheyre, HSM, Farmaajo. We don’t have ONE. Stuck in a generation of oldheads who either only know Kacaan politics or war, and can’t adapt to the current state of SL politics. This new generation are 1970 and younger, very qabil-diverse, we don’t know what the future holds with them in charge but I trust them over anything else Somalia has.