Earliest mention of Somali

[Idilinaa]

Hararis call Somalis “Tumur” FYI.
not really, Somalis probably came up with the word Soomal to refer to their way of life. Because Hararis have been calling all Somalis “Tumur”. Tumur wasn’t an occupational class the same way we called Oromos “Argata”. That also wasn’t an occupational class. Soomal was the way your people chose to name themselves because that is what they valued.

No it’s because before the Oromo migrations we used to be in multiple cities. We literally have Harari manuscripts that talked about these events. Harari bookbinding was a specialty with even Richard Burton rivaling it with only Persia. The Harari manuscripts talked about the huge population upheaval and famine the Oromo migrations caused, and how at the end only harar survived. After being trapped in a city for centuries, that city becomes your identity.

Tumur is a pronounciation of Tumaal(Blacksmith). They also call Somali ''Bona'' for Boon(leatherworker) and they also pronounced Somal as' Semur . All 3 of those names was used by Hararis.

They are basically just reiterating names we use for eachother. Soomaal etymologically is similar to Tumaal. I shared a source by Ali Riraash that breaks it down: https://www.somalispot.com/threads/futuh-al-habasha-somalis-as-bedouins.163690/page-10#post-3982043

More than half of the permenant population of Harar was Somali by the time of Burtons visit , as they lived in Harar they was part of the clergy producing manuscripts as well. But a lot of the manuscripts were copied from elsewhere, some even from the Northern coast or Yemen and was perserved in Harar.

The quarters Somalis lived in was the oldest parts of the city and their entrepoint features the oldest gate of the city the Erer Gate which drove much of the commerce and traffic to the town.

They even borrowed the word Xeer as heera meaning custom/law in Somali as well, noticed it from the list. So Garaad is even less suprising.

Boon is less so about low caste as incorrectly interpreted. They are umbrella occupational names, simply.

Also it's not surprising that tumur/tumtu (Blacksmith/tumaal) and boon (tanner) are loans when you consider the fact that most black smiths/craftsments and weavers/leatherworkers in Harar were Somali. They call them Tumur collectively as a result of that.

Inside the city the artisans are concentrated in certain quarters:

After talking to many Habashi, instead of identifying with a "clan" they instead go by whatever village, town they originate from.

That's why alot of modern people calling themselves "Harari" are Amhara and Galla who settled the city after Meneliks conquest.

And the previous bunch calling themselves harari were Agrobba, who are linked to Amhara, and were refugees who settled in the city after the futuh.

They didn't originate in the areas they settled into , they even say it themselves when people interviewed them that they were Amharic speaking settlers that came down to the colonize the area in the 19th century but they still bore those names as exclusive identities.

I can understand naming yourself after the village, town or a region , doesn't maked them originally from there.

There is no mention of Harari or Agrogoba people in any historical medieval writing thats the problem, there are mentions of Gurage and other identities/names , even in Futuh.

It makes sense though they only called themselves by those names when they settled into those areas in later years and centuries, which they somewhat admit to. Even Gurage identity was a re-use by a section of them who said they came down from Tigray when interviewed.

People see them baring those names and think it means its part of a historical continuity.

Now the Ethiopianists try their hardest to discredit Somalis by creating this absurd link between Habasha groups who settled jn harar and the name 'Harla" in the Futuh who are not even an ethnicity or have a known language of their own. If you said calling someone a Harla during the Futuh was like calling someone a Tumaal that would be just as plausible a hypothesis.

There is literally 0 proof for what these ethiopians push. Meanwhile Somalis are named the most and Somalis are also named by their distinct clans. Showing the familiarity the Yemeni scribe had with Somali society.

Harla in Christian ethiopian sources, genealogical records(which points to them being kombe darood who settled tin the area to specifically farm) and Medieval muslim chronicles like futuh are just described as a regular agro-pastoral clan that lived between the fertile upper shabelle and awash.

They ignore the documented written mentions of them and create a mythology around them by misrepresenting and relying on oral history.

They go to Somalis and ask them ''who was there before you?'' and they think back to their non-Muslim ancestors before the founding the medieval Muslim clans i.e ''Dadki Hore'' and give Taalo Tiriyaad story of giants of a cursed people.

In one of the revealing instances I'M Lewis went to investigate some of those burial mounds and found just recent Somali remains in them:

Then they go to Oromo or Afar who pushed into the fertile areas where Harla was the dominant clan and they start attributing ruins and buildings to them

Both tales morphed into one and it's repeated by current writers.

If you read Futuh you can see it's the state/government leaders and perhaps wealthy people that intitiated and financed the building of towns, mosques and settlements it wasn't Harla. They are not directly mentioned to build anything.

Here is a few passages from Futuh: Even appointing people to carry out the building process.

With Abu Bakr were forty knights from Balaw, with the sum Sakr and the sum Muhammad. He pacified it and its people remained on as peasant farmers for them. He built towns in it, and mosques.

Over it, the imam appointed Garad Sabr ad-Din,and built towns and mosques in it that are there today.' He also appointed Farasaham 4 All along with Farasaham Sultan, 'Adil, Samsu
and Takla over the land of Darha87' which extends from Bagemder to Gojjam. He
built towns and mosques there, and its people remained on as peasant fanners for
the Muslims.

There are villages intervening the cities/towns:

The imam went ceaselessly from village to village until he arrived at the country of Hubat. There he was joined by the emir Husain al-Gaturi as a support.

This is pretty much supported by archeology that this was state coordinated.

As far as Tumaal l(Blacksmiths) goes, they are not a clan, or a large involved population like Soomaal(bedouins) who lived all over and most of them would be concentrated inside the towns and cities to even be given a mention in a chronicle about a conquest like Futuh.

 

[Yami]

When you have zero proof and just start yapping XD

Your language itself is proof. Look up the closest related tongue to Harari.

I'm not denying that your ancestors contributed to the ancient history of Hararghe as they certainly have however, those ancestors of yours weren't Semitic speakers let alone Harari ones. There's a reason all Hararis doing genetic tests have some degree of Somali admixture

 

[oogabooga]

Tumur is a pronounciation of Tumaal(Blacksmith). They also call Somali ''Bona'' for Boon(leatherworker) and they also pronounced Somal as' Semur . All 3 of those names was used by Hararis.

No we call blacksmith “Tumtu”, so I doubt Tumur is a pronunciation of that. It’s possible that those two words have a common denominator but I don’t know what that is.

More than half of the permenant population of Harar was Somali by the time of Burtons visit , as they lived in Harar they was part of the clergy producing manuscripts as well. But a lot of the manuscripts were copied from elsewhere, some even from the Northern coast or Yemen and was perserved in Harar.

Egyptians who occupied harar for 10 years stated that there were 25k Hararis and 6k Somalis. Burton only stayed at harar for a week so he estimated. Yes Somalis were part of the urban society there but notice how the only works they did were artisan works and not agricultural. And notice how Somalis weren’t the ones farming in the direct vicinity of Harar. It just suggests that the natives of Harar were the Hararis.

 

[oogabooga]

Your language itself is proof. Look up the closest related tongue to Harari.

I'm not denying that your ancestors contributed to the ancient history of Hararghe as they certainly have however, those ancestors of yours weren't Semitic speakers let alone Harari ones. There's a reason all Hararis doing genetic tests have some degree of Somali admixture

Argobba are the closest related tongue to the Harari and they themselves refer to their original home as Ifat. Fun fact, the road on the main gate of Harar was called “Ifat Uga.” Before the Oromo migrations, there probably used to be one continuous language region. If you read Harari manuscripts, you can see how they used to travel back and forth with ease before the migrations.

 

[Idilinaa]

No we call blacksmith “Tumtu”, so I doubt Tumur is a pronunciation of that. It’s possible that those two words have a common denominator but I don’t know what that is.

It's a varation of the same name that is interchangeable with Tumur. The used refer to Somalis by that name as well , as well as in refrence to others.

For example
Weighted Digging Sticks in Ethiopia

The shafts are made by households as required. The metal tip sheaths are made in Harar by an endogamous 'caste' of Somali blacksmiths called t'umt'u .

Tumur was probably more specific.

Egyptians who occupied harar for 10 years stated that there were 25k Hararis and 6k Somalis. Burton only stayed at harar for a week so he estimated. Yes Somalis were part of the urban society there but notice how the only works they did were artisan works and not agricultural. And notice how Somalis weren’t the ones farming in the direct vicinity of Harar. It just suggests that the natives of Harar were the Hararis.

Can you give me a source of that? I saw someone else mentioned the same thing before

This is all i found of what Egyptians said ''The census estimated the total number of Oromo and Somalis living under the Harar administration during Nadi Pasha's terms to be between half a million and 1 million people.'' So Somalis and Oromos lived in Harar and its environs.
There were Somali and Oromo tribes in the direct vincinity of Harar that were farmers, cultivating grain,sorghum , corn and even coffee and raised cattle as well.

 

[oogabooga]

It's a varation of the same name that is interchangeable with Tumur. The used refer to Somalis by that name as well , as well as in refrence to others.

It’s interesting if you look into the meaning of Tumur. It’s comprised of two words “Tum” + “ur”. “Tum” is a common Semetic word meaning “to conceal, to wrap” and “ur” is a harari command meaning “reveal.” So I doubt it’s talking about blacksmith because you wouldn’t want your blacksmith to reveal the iron that is bent out of shape. Hence Tumtu probably being the word for blacksmith, someone who conceals the deformations of iron.

Can you give me a source of that? I saw someone else mentioned the same thing before

This is all i found of what Egyptians said ''The census estimated the total number of Oromo and Somalis living under the Harar administration during Nadi Pasha's terms to be between half a million and 1 million people.'' So Somalis and Oromos lived in Harar and its environs.

Yeah it’s in the sources page of the history of harar and Harari book, too much work to find it but the dudes name was Paulschtke.

Somalis and Oromos used to have their own farming villages beyond the farms of the hararis.

 

[Idilinaa]

It’s interesting if you look into the meaning of Tumur. It’s comprised of two words “Tum” + “ur”. “Tum” is a common Semetic word meaning “to conceal, to wrap” and “ur” is a harari command meaning “reveal.” So I doubt it’s talking about blacksmith because you wouldn’t want your blacksmith to reveal the iron that is bent out of shape. Hence Tumtu probably being the word for blacksmith, someone who conceals the deformations of iron.

Yeah it’s in the sources page of the history of harar and Harari book, too much work to find it but the dudes name was Paulschtke.

Somalis and Oromos used to have their own farming villages beyond the farms of the hararis.

Tum actually means ''to beat'' in the Somali language. It's in reference to beating/striking iron.

Maal means a mode of life .

We know Tumaal to be a Somali specific term because it even exists in the languages among distant groups related to us like Rendille.

baiso and rendille: somali outliers​

https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/4912/1/Baiso%20and%20Rendille_Somali%20outliers.pdf

Harar is a crossroad town that has different tribes/communities living west, east and south from it including Hararis during the 1800s. And has gates that go in different directions.

 

[oogabooga]

Tum actually means ''to beat'' in the Somali language. It's in reference to beating/striking iron.

“Tum” is probably a Semetic loanword into Somali. I sent an attachment below showing all the Semetic languages that have the root word “Tum”. Hence, the origin of Tumtu/Tumaal not being Somali.

 

[Idilinaa]

“Tum” is probably a Semetic loanword into Somali. I sent an attachment below showing all the Semetic languages that have the root word “Tum”. Hence, the origin of Tumtu/Tumaal not being Somali.

This sounds very forced not only does the word you pulled up not even resemble Tumur/Tumaal/Tumtu, but what does Tamma or Tamtama which means ''wrapping'' have to do with iron and blacksmith work?

 

[oogabooga]

This sounds very forced not only does the word you pulled up not even resemble Tumur/Tumaal/Tumtu, but what does Tamma or Tamtama which means ''wrapping'' have to do with iron and blacksmith work?

The root letters are literally ت م م, very clearly the root letters of Tum. Unlike Af Somali where there are no Cushitic equivalents.

Wrapping around is literally what a blacksmith does; they bend and shape the metals for the specified end product.

You can deny all you want but that’s very solid evidence to suggest the term Tumaal/Tumtu is not originating from Af Somali.

 

[Idilinaa]

The root letters are literally ت م م, very clearly the root letters of Tum. Unlike Af Somali where there are no Cushitic equivalents.

Wrapping around is literally what a blacksmith does; they bend and shape the metals for the specified end product.

You can deny all you want but that’s very solid evidence to suggest the term Tumaal/Tumtu is not originating from Af Somali.

That's not a root, it just a word what you have shown that is completed unrelated and means something else.

And i did show you equivalent word in Baiso and Rendille languages which are both cushitic languages related to Somalis and they are way down south in kenya with no contact with ethio-Semetic speakers.

baiso and rendille: somali outliers​

https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/4912/1/Baiso%20and%20Rendille_Somali%20outliers.pdf

Harar is a crossroad town that has different tribes/communities living west, east and south from it including Hararis during the 1800s. And has gates that go in different directions.

 

[Midas]

That's not a root, it just a word what you have shown that is completed unrelated and means something else.

And i did show you equivalent word in Baiso and Rendille languages which are both cushitic languages related to Somalis and they are way down south in kenya with no contact with ethio-Semetic speakers.

He's obviously doesn't want to accept the facts. But I'm curious what about the muslims in ethiopia who are amhara or tigrayan . When did they convert since you always hear the narrative about islam entering ethiopia in the 7th century. I'm only aware of the dahlalak. That existed for a few centuries.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

clearly there are no urban areas in modern day Northern Somalia that have an extensive agricultural base, hence you had to resort to medieval towns of which we don’t even know were inhabited by Somalis.

You asked for agricultural somali towns in medieval Adal and I showed you proof that there was, what are you on about?

um… sir we have been living there for centuries what is there to explain, we have land deeds going back hundreds of years, we have our way of farming and sedentary lifestyle. The Harari urban culture is so developed that every detail of the home’s design has meaning and it’s unique. The nadaba gar is a unique staple of a harari home, and has been found in the ruins nearby Harar like Afeyzaro.

The Hararis of the 16th century are not the Hararis of the 19th century-to modern population. Those people were not your ancestors. Cope.

Somalis have nothing that compared to the harari way of life, that’s what I mean when I say harar is not like Somalia. The burden of proof is on you for claiming Somalis built harar but magically disappeared from it.

I literally brought evidence that Somalis were the majority of the Harar in the early 1800s, Somalis left it after Menelik’s invasion. Harari “lifestyle” isn’t anything unique to the Horn.

Amelie is confused, saying on one hand that the harari inhabitants speak their own language but on the other hand saying there are no links to the inhabitants of 16th century.

Sure, I’ll take what modern studies have to say about Harar compared to some kid who doesn’t know any history.

However the Somali people is still intact, yet there are little to no links of the Somali people to the Harari people. Same reason why there is no link between those medieval towns in northern Somalia and somalis; because it’s probable Somalis didn’t inhabit them.

Instead of coping about medieval Northern Somalia, try to find some concrete evidence that Hararis are even the same population as 16-17th century Hararis

 

[Idilinaa]

He's obviously doesn't want to accept the facts. But I'm curious what about the muslims in ethiopia who are amhara or tigrayan . When did they convert since you always hear the narrative about islam entering ethiopia in the 7th century. I'm only aware of the dahlalak. That existed for a few centuries.

Amhara and central highlanders were pagan for the most part and converted en mass between 12-13th century to Christianity and then consolidated themselves in the area

From what i know Dakhlak was mentioned around the same time as Zayla in external Muslim sources. Dakhlaq was an entreproint of Islam for Afar, Tigre, Beja communities and Zayla was an early entrepoint for Somalis

As far as the earliest Muslims goes: They did excavations in Awdal and Galbeed that shown that people were already Muslims during the 700s/800s and Islam was widespread in the Eastern Horn interior. They found 50,000 animal remains butchered according to Islam/halal dating back to the 8th century.

Early Muslims in Africa had a cosmopolitan halal diet

Excavations by archaeologists in Ethiopia have discovered that early Muslim communities ate a cosmopolitan diet as the region became a trading centre for luxury goods. - HeritageDaily - Archaeology News

www.heritagedaily.com

 

[Midas]

Amhara and central highlanders were pagan for the most part and converted en mass between 12-13th century to Christianity and then consolidated themselves in the area

From what i know Dakhlak was mentioned around the same time as Zayla in external Muslim sources. Dakhlaq was an entreproint of Islam for Afar, Tigre, Beja communities and Zayla was an early entrepoint for Somalis

As far as the earliest Muslims goes: They did excavations in Awdal and Galbeed that shown that people were already Muslims during the 700s/800s and Islam was widespread in the Eastern Horn interior. They found 50,000 animal remains butchered according to Islam/halal dating back to the 8th century.

Early Muslims in Africa had a cosmopolitan halal diet

Excavations by archaeologists in Ethiopia have discovered that early Muslim communities ate a cosmopolitan diet as the region became a trading centre for luxury goods. - HeritageDaily - Archaeology News

www.heritagedaily.com

Wait if amahraa were still mainly pagan till the 12/13th century. Then who were the aksumites? Since the offcial conversion happens around the 4th century. How was it that they were still mainly pagan 1,000 years later.

 

[Idilinaa]

Wait if amahraa were still mainly pagan till the 12/13th century. Then who were the aksumites? Since the offcial conversion happens around the 4th century. How was it that they were still mainly pagan 1,000 years later.

Axumites were northern highlanders and they spoke Geez. Amhara are central highlanders.

 

[Midas]

Axumites were northern highlanders and they spoke Geez. Amhara are central highlanders.

Do we know what happened to them? Are modern tigrayans their descendants?

 

[Idilinaa]

Do we know what happened to them? Are modern tigrayans their descendants?

It's hard to say, Geez is not an ancestor of any of the other ethio-semetic languages which includes Tigray/Trigrinya. It's not even an older language to the rest.

 

[Midas]

It's hard to say, Geez is not an ancestor of any of the other ethio-semetic languages which includes Tigray/Trigrinya. It's not even an older language to the rest.

I thought ethiopia had a roman empire type situation with the modern ethiosemetic oanaguges being descended from geez. It makes the whole anicent ethiopian cvilization thing look more like a larp. It's more like how german states claimed to be the holy roman empire.

 

[Som]

I know most say the first mention of the name "Somali" was in the 15th century in a hymm by Emperor Yeshaq but I recalled the Chinese mentioning Somali by name even earlier but I can't find the source.

The reference you are looking for is probably Po-Pa-Li and Pi Pa Lo being mentioned by Chinese sources at two different times in History. Unlike the Ethiopian source though we can't be sure that they are talking about somalis but it seems one of these two sources is probably talking about somalia and the other one probably not
The first 9th. Century Chinese source mentions on Po Pa' Li some things that suggest they were probably not talking about somalis but some other folks in east Africa. For example the source says the people of po pa li had a custom of drinking cow blood and milk (typical Masai thing) and enslaving each other
The second source mentions Pi Pa Lo in the same geographic area around the 12th. Century and mentions some things that are more common among somalis such as large presence of livestock and pastoralism , somalis worshipping the sky (waaq was the sky god) , mention of four big cities etc.
I'd argue the second source is more compatible with Somalia while the first one is maybe talking about some bantu or nilotic groups in modern day Kenya. We can't be sure though, it's just speculation
This blog post summarizes this

800 CE Po-pa-li is not Somalia but 1100 CE Pi-pa-lo is?

Over a year ago, in a post , I delved into a Chinese account by an author named Duan Chengshi (died around circa. 863 CE) where he mentio...

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