Earliest mention of Somali

[Som]

That’s goofy, that text doesn’t say Somali or Samale. It’s clearly pronounced Sān Malan, the same way they pronounced Zeila correctly. Sān is the Harari root word of the following words: Sāni (which means “straight”), wassāñ (which means “select(as an adjective)/special” like “wassan usu” meaning select people/select few), and Sāñi (which means “ironsmith”). My guess is that Sān is a metal. Malan is a noun version of the word Mala’a (another example is hegana which means to replace). So San Malan would mean “the metal-filled kingdom” referring to the metalworking nature of the kingdom. Makes sense as the old Harla ruins found metalworking workshops present as well metal mines. Even places like Sim in Futuh are tied to metals in the Harari language, as is the case with Simmet (figurately meaning “something of value” but literally meaning “the silver of Sim”). Lots of old Harari words are lost but their remains still exist.

Chinese folks back in the days would have had zero idea of the difference between somalis and hararis which is subtle at least to a foreign eye and certainly they were not aware of were somalis end and hararis start. As far as they knew all people in the horn of Africa or even all blacks were the same .
Let's not make stuff up just for the sake of doing it. We can just make some hypothesis but that's it.

 

[The alchemist]

That’s goofy, that text doesn’t say Somali or Samale. It’s clearly pronounced Sān Malan, the same way they pronounced Zeila correctly. Sān is the Harari root word of the following words: Sāni (which means “straight”), wassāñ (which means “select(as an adjective)/special” like “wassan usu” meaning select people/select few), and Sāñi (which means “ironsmith”). My guess is that Sān is a metal. Malan is a noun version of the word Mala’a (another example is hegana which means to replace). So San Malan would mean “the metal-filled kingdom” referring to the metalworking nature of the kingdom. Makes sense as the old Harla ruins found metalworking workshops present as well metal mines. Even places like Sim in Futuh are tied to metals in the Harari language, as is the case with Simmet (figurately meaning “something of value” but literally meaning “the silver of Sim”). Lots of old Harari words are lost but their remains still exist.

Do you think foreign Chinese people will appropriate nuanced Harari words that imply an integrated Harari meaning to refer to Hararis instead of it being just corruption, a regular occurrence that foreigners always have done to names of places and people they don't understand the vernacular of? Occam's Razor, man.

 

[oogabooga]

Chinese folks back in the days would have had zero idea of the difference between somalis and hararis which is subtle at least to a foreign eye and certainly they were not aware of were somalis end and hararis start. As far as they knew all people in the horn of Africa or even all blacks were the same .
Let's not make stuff up just for the sake of doing it. We can just make some hypothesis but that's it.

I didn’t say anything about that, if you read my comment you would see that I’m saying the name of the kingdom has a meaning in the Harari language in the way the dude pronounced it.

 

[oogabooga]

Do you think foreign Chinese people will appropriate nuanced Harari words that imply an integrated Harari meaning to refer to Hararis instead of it being just corruption, a regular occurrence that foreigners always have done to names of places and people they don't understand the vernacular of? Occam's Razor, man.

the Chinese author pronounced Zeila correctly, so they most probably said San Malan correctly as well. Stop with the copium.

 

[The alchemist]

the Chinese author pronounced Zeila correctly, so they most probably said San Malan correctly as well. Stop with the copium.

There will be inconsistencies. That is just how the nature of things goes. You're making a big deal out of something very small because you want to take credit from where it is due like every Ethiopian that has been on this forum, lol. We say they made a corruption which the Chinese did to every other place outside China, while you give them attributes you know for a fact they did not have. Principle of parsimony, bro. Apply it sometimes.

 

[Zak12]

Harar is so different from the rest of Somalia in culture and language (and the only city in the whole region) that existed for a long time outside of Mogadishu.

Not at all. There were plenty of agropastoralist communities in southern Somalia and to suggest it and Mogadishu were the one cities in the entire region is silly. Merca and Barawe come to mind immediately.

 

[oogabooga]

You lot are really goofy, when I present clear cut evidence like the “Tum” etymology and other logic, your brains automatically reject it. I don’t know if y’all can’t comprehend it or just are coping. This whole discussion goes in circles: I bring up a Harari etymology to a word that doesn’t have a Somali one, Somali brain-lackers jump me with unfounded baseless claims which they automatically assume to be true, I ask them if any remnants remain among the Somali population, there is none, and then they result to the same baseless claims and name calling to cope. Only person on here worth discussing with is @Idilinaa .

 

[oogabooga]

There will be inconsistencies. That is just how the nature of things goes. You're making a big deal out of something very small because you want to take credit from where it is due like every Ethiopian that has been on this forum, lol. We say they made a corruption which the Chinese did to every other place outside China, while you give them attributes you know for a fact they did not have. Principle of parsimony, bro. Apply it sometimes.

lol with ur logic that means they should have pronounced Zeila “Zhong long” or something

 

[The alchemist]

lol with ur logic that means they should have pronounced Zeila “Zhong long” or something

You made that up. You're the one who is being unreasonable now. Seize this attempt at once. Nigga said Zhong Long.

 

[oogabooga]

You made that up. You're the one who is being unreasonable now. Seize this attempt at once. Nigga said Zhong Long.

I don’t think u understood what I said. I said that with ur rationale, the Chinese author couldn’t have been able to write Zeila because he has inconsistencies. So with ur logic, he shoulda said “Zhong Ding Dong” and we were supposed to piece it together and say “Zeila”.

 

[oogabooga]

Even if there was an inconsistency with San Malan, the next thing to do is compare it with sources at the time. The closest thing to San Malan is Mossylon, as the Greeks mentioned.

 

[The alchemist]

I don’t think u understood what I said. I said that with ur rationale, the Chinese author couldn’t have been able to write Zeila because he has inconsistencies. So with ur logic, he shoulda said “Zhong Ding Dong” and we were supposed to piece it together and say “Zeila”.

Do you have to do this super dweeb attempt with these nerdy passive-aggressive condescending lines that ultimately just seem comical?

Keep it at a level of charitability that gives in to common sense. Your explanation has too many assumptions while ours is simple.

 

[Three Moons]

@Zak12 see the Kingdom of Chung-li, and how it should be pronounced in medieval Chinese;

 

[oogabooga]

Do you have to do this super dweeb attempt with these nerdy passive-aggressive condescending lines that ultimately just seem comical?

Keep it at a level of charitability that gives in to common sense. Your explanation has too many assumptions while ours is simple.

I’m sorry but ur pals here clearly didn’t understand what I was saying, so I have to explain it in a way that they understand

 

[JustSomeGuy]

I know most say the first mention of the name "Somali" was in the 15th century in a hymm by Emperor Yeshaq but I recalled the Chinese mentioning Somali by name even earlier but I can't find the source.

Really? I thought most people referred to Somalis as “people from the city of Berberah/Moqdishu”. I don’t think Somalis even called themselves Somalis back then.

 

[Idilinaa]

I thought ethiopia had a roman empire type situation with the modern ethiosemetic oanaguges being descended from geez. It makes the whole anicent ethiopian cvilization thing look more like a larp. It's more like how german states claimed to be the holy roman empire.

It is a similar situation to Europeans now that i think about it. The collapse of Axum which was a high civilization considered a world power , led to the same feudalism and rural culture and political fragmentation. Ethiopia politically fragmented into many competing feudal fiefdoms which chief among them was Zagwe and Damot and both were dominated by the Amhara led Solomonic later on. Europe political fragmented into a bunch fiefdoms and decentralization.

In Europe , Latin the language of Romans as a liturgical/written language and Christianity survived but the Roman institutions, urban culture and bureaucratic structure didn't.

Same with Ethiopia/Eritrea , Geez became a liturgical/written language and Christianity survived alongside it, the Axumite institutions, seafaring and urban, commercial culture didn't survive.
Abyssinia/Solomonic much like the Holy Roman Empire was not a continuation of Rome or Axum, but they attempted to borrow from that legacy to create legitimacy for themselves.

They both became illiterate societies where a small religious clergy could read and write in a language that wasn't part of common speech Latin and Geez. Power was monopolized by the church. Whereas literacy was widespread during Axum and Rome.

The only dissimilar part of it , is that there are no descendant languages of Geez , the same way there are descendant languages of Vulgar Latin in the form of Romance languages of Romanian, French, Portuguese and Spanish. I think it would be interesting to explore the reasons why.

And that Europe was able to climb up from that decline from the 14th century or before, whereas lack of access to the sea, lack of control of trade routes, Christian war ideology, with no surounding allies/diplomatic ties(At least until the portuguese) and concentrated power base in central highlands prevented Ethiopia.

 

[Idilinaa]

There is a reason why the earliest clear mentions of ''Somali'' is either with a neighbor we had a direct relations with and knew us locally or from internally written documents/chronicles by the adalites/muslims because it was a local name. You had to be an insider to even be mentioning the specific tribal/clan and occupational names.

Ali Rirash explains this: Take the time to read this.

It is a similar situation to Europeans now that i think about it. The collapse of Axum which was a high civilization considered a world power , led to the same feudalism and rural culture and political fragmentation. Ethiopia politically fragmented into many competing feudal fiefdoms which chief among them was Zagwe and Damot and both were dominated by the Amhara led Solomonic later on. Europe political fragmented into a bunch fiefdoms and decentralization.

In Europe , Latin the language of Romans as a liturgical/written language and Christianity survived but the Roman institutions, urban culture and bureaucratic structure didn't.

Same with Ethiopia/Eritrea , Geez became a liturgical/written language and Christianity survived alongside it, the Axumite institutions, seafaring and urban, commercial culture didn't survive.
Abyssinia/Solomonic much like the Holy Roman Empire was not a continuation of Rome or Axum, but they attempted to borrow from that legacy to create legitimacy for themselves.

They both became illiterate societies where a small religious clergy could read and write in a language that wasn't part of common speech Latin and Geez. Power was monopolized by the church. Whereas literacy was widespread during Axum and Rome.

The only dissimilar part of it , is that there are no descendant languages of Geez , the same way there are descendant languages of Vulgar Latin in the form of Romance languages of Romanian, French, Portuguese and Spanish. I think it would be interesting to explore the reasons why.

And that Europe was able to climb up from that decline from the 14th century or before, whereas lack of access to the sea, lack of control of trade routes, Christian war ideology, with no surrounding allies/diplomatic ties(At least until the portuguese) and concentrated power base in central highlands prevented Ethiopia.

It is also dissimilar in why it collapsed , whereas Rome collapsed due to external forces and sociopolitical factors. Axum collapsed largely due to geographical soil erosion, becoming landlocked and climate destruction by population pressure/movements in the Northern Highlands where it's political and economic heartland was centered.

It pretty much siezed to exist as an entity by the 7th century. Trade declined after 600 And Axum was essentially landlocked by year 715. It was largely abandoned by 800.

Rise and Fall of Axum, Ethiopia: A Geo-Archaeological Interpretation

https://www.jstor.org/stable/280596

Trade declined after 600 and Axum was essentially landlocked by 715. Intense land pressure and more erratic rainfall favored soil destruction and ecological degradation during the seventh and eighth centuries. Largely abandoned by 800 and pillaged by border tribes. Axum retained only symbolic significance as power shifted to the more fertile lands of humid central Ethiopia. Axum shows how the spatial and temporal variability of resources, and the interactions between a society and its resource base, can be fundamental in the analysis of historical process.

 

[Midas]

There is a reason why the earliest clear mentions of ''Somali'' is either with a neighbor we had a direct relations with and knew us locally or from internally written documents/chronicles by the adalites/muslims because it was a local name. You had to be an insider to even be mentioning the specific tribal/clan and occupational names.

Ali Rirash explains this: Take the time to read this.

It is also dissimilar in why it collapsed , whereas Rome collapsed due to external forces and sociopolitical factors. Axum collapsed largely due to geographical soil erosion, becoming landlocked and climate destruction by population pressure/movements in the Northern Highlands where it's political and economic heartland was centered.

It pretty much siezed to exist as an entity by the 7th century. Trade declined after 600 And Axum was essentially landlocked by year 715. It was largely abandoned by 800.

Rise and Fall of Axum, Ethiopia: A Geo-Archaeological Interpretation

https://www.jstor.org/stable/280596

Another difference is that there is no surviving aksumite literature with the exception of the ge'ez Bible canon. Even stranger is that considering how late the amahra conversion was to Christianity. You woukd have expected some writings about their pagan customs or beliefs but I'm not aware of anything. This is even weirder when you consider that all those giant aksumite steles were constructed before the conversion to chrisnaity. Which makes me think there must have been A very sophisticated urban culture. Yet there seems to be no culutral remnant left behind by them .

 

[Idilinaa]

Another difference is that there is no surviving aksumite literature with the exception of the ge'ez Bible canon. Even stranger is that considering how late the amahra conversion was to Christianity. You woukd have expected some writings about their pagan customs or beliefs but I'm not aware of anything. This is even weirder when you consider that all those giant aksumite steles were constructed before the conversion to chrisnaity. Which makes me think there must have been A very sophisticated urban culture. Yet there seems to be no culutral remnant left behind by them .

Not that's not a difference, that's a similarity

It's not really strange its what happens when civilizations and empires collapse , the bulk of it's written literature disappears with it. The same happened in Europe with the Roman collapse

During the Middle Ages, all but a tiny fraction of Greek and Roman literature disappeared.

None of the Roman history survived in Italy or Rome or its important centers, it was preserved in Byzantium in Constantinople that remained intact or some far fringes and other times it was preserved by Arabs that came in contact with it. That innit of itself is just a tiny fraction, very few sources and very fragmentary. Some literature fragments was also found in some ancient garbage dump by accident in Egypt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyrhynchus_Papyri


Axumite ruled far and wide but their economic and political heartland and center was in Northern highlands , it started out as pagan worshipping both local idols and South Arabian ones , the earliest incriptions of Axum and pre-axumite like d'mt are like this mentioning idols like Beher, Astar and Mahrem. There was even like snake serpent cult with its iconography all over , which is interestingly also shared with cushitic speakers.

The state eventually converted to Christianity but i assume all its subjects especially in the far distant regions did not.

 

[Laser]

Argobba are the closest related tongue to the Harari and they themselves refer to their original home as Ifat. Fun fact, the road on the main gate of Harar was called “Ifat Uga.” Before the Oromo migrations, there probably used to be one continuous language region. If you read Harari manuscripts, you can see how they used to travel back and forth with ease before the migrations.

Gurage is, argobba is closely related to amharic. Your gurage ass went to harar for protection now we got ngas like you claiming the city, i guess everything have it's consequences.