Musa gives Ethiopia a port and a military base on the Gulf of Aden. It's over

[Cali1996]

Yes, Somaliland has been defacto independent since 1991 but that is just it, defacto. Its bilateral declaration of independence has not and will not ever be recognized by any state because Somaliland is considered de jure apart of Somalia by the international community. For example, Georgia, the country in the Caucasus has its own break away states in Abkhazia and South Ossetia which is hasn't controlled since the 90s. The international community considers those territory to be rightfully apart of Georgia so being independent means nothing when everyone still considers you to be apart of Somalia.

If push comes to shove and if HSM has the balls to do it, Somalia can squeeze Somaliland dry and put heavy economic and political pressure on it. Don't confuse the fact that Mogadishu has no direct control to meaning FGS has absolutely no sway in Somaliland because at the end of the day, an Abgaal nigga in Mogadishu signs the papers to allow foreigners to work with Somaliland.

Somalia will not fall for such transparent black mail attempts. Its clear that the Las Anod war has proven so disasterous that Bixi is willing to resort to such measure despite the unpopularity of the deal back home.

Nothing is terrible about the deal. Turkey is willing to built up Somalia's navy and built maritime infastructure to drilla and survey oil all without Somalia paying anything up front. They only want a 30% cut of the revenue generated which is nothing. And contrary to what you believe, the deal has been talked about since 2020 so it was not a reaction to the Ethiopia-SL deal, it was always in the works. Meanwhile Somaliland in exchange for Ethiopia annexing their lands will be getting a 20% cut of an airlines that only makes a billion a year in revenue. Its by an far away the worst deal than what Somalia has.

The reason why the entirety of greater Somalia is in the situation it's in today is it's emotional people. From Mohamed Abdullah hassan who refused to be the undisputed king of Somaliland when he was defeated to Mohamed siad barre who refused the Russian offer to take the entirety of Ogaden but without dire dawa, Somalis have always wasted great opportunities wither it was for the great good or for their personal benefit due to their arrogance. You would think that years of civil war and chaos would teach the Somali people to be a little more pragmatic but they somehow became even more emotional than previous generations. But guess who learned to be pragmatic? The likes of HSM. Somalilanders will endup in a best case scenario like the kurds in Iraq, Turkey or Syria or in a worst case scenario like south yemen during Ali Salah's era.

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

@Rabiic Here is the simple explanation as to why today’s Somaliland has no legal basis:

1. Somaliland elected 33 MPs to its Legislative Assembly on Feb 17 1960.
2. These 33, freely elected, MPs passed the THE UNION OF SOMALILAND AND SOMALIA LAW on June 27 1960, the first day of independence.
3. The 33 MPs, including the four members of the Council of Ministers (among them Cigaal and Cali Garaad) took this legislation and flew to Mogadishu.
   
   
4. On July 4th, Somaliland’s 33 MPs were merged with Somalia’s 90, and they together elected the first president of the Somali Republic.
5. On July 5th, 4 days after union, Somaliland’s 4 man council of ministers assented to the Union of Somaliland and Somalia Law that the Legislative Assembly had passed on June 27.

How can a meeting of rebel militia and capo qabiils in Burco proclaim secession? Who voted for the men who signed the secessio/treason declaration? How can they overrule the 1960 decision of the 33 freely elected MPs? Of course there is no legal basis.

Somaliland ceased to exist on July 1st 1960, and its elected representatives wanted it that way. No one can run time backward. Forever means forever.

 

[Zak12]

And if Somalia stabilises, do you think a referendum would still be recognised?

What is to stop Xamar from passing a law that says any secession referendum must be voted on by the whole country, which is what Spain did to Catalonia?

I'm pretty sure its already in their constitution that Somaliland is a federal state.

View attachment 332061

Administrative regions in Africa in 1960, where only the names have changed:

Bechuanaland Protectorate - became the Republic of Botswana on 30 September 1966.

Ruanda-Urundi - became the two independent states of Rwanda and Burundi.

South West Africa - renamed to Namibia from 12 June 1968.

Southern Rhodesia - the country achieved internationally recognised independence as Zimbabwe in April 1980.

Northern Rhodesia - the country became independent in 1964 as Zambia.

Republic of Upper Volta - On 4 August 1984, it changed its name to Burkina Faso.

Rio Muni, Fernando Po, Annobón (Spanish Guinea) – gains independence as Republic of Equatorial Guinea in 1968.

Dahomey - In 1960, Dahomey gained full independence from France as a sovereign state Benin.

Some border changes:

Tanganyika & Zanizibar - Both achieve independence seperately and form a Union to create Tanzania.

View attachment 332064

View attachment 332065

Mali Federation - The Mali Federation was a federation in West Africa linking the French colonies of Senegal and the Sudanese Republic (or French Sudan) for two months in 1960. It was founded on 4 April 1959 as a territory with self-rule within the French Community and became independent after negotiations with France on 20 June 1960. Although the Mali Federation existed in name only in Bamako for another month, France and most other nations recognized the two colonies as separate independent countries on 12 September 1960.

Western Sahara -
View attachment 332069

British Cameroons (BR Cameroons) - the major question was whether to remain with Nigeria or to unite with the newly independent Republic of Cameroon. In a UN-supervised plebiscite in February 1961, the south decided to unite with the former French Cameroun, creating the Federal Republic of Cameroon. The north voted to join the Federation of Nigeria.

View attachment 332066


----

British Cameroons might be the only close case but even then they didn't achieve independence, they were given a vote by the British on which country to join (Nigeria or Cameroon).

That's why the AU fact finding mission came to the conclusion:

View attachment 332067


---------------------------
In conclusion: Italian Somaliland tried to absorb and digest British Somaliland but it didn't work.

Almost none of those are anything like Somaliland. Closest is your Tanzania example and they still remained the same after their union. The only major changes to Africa's borders were the creation of Eritrea and South Sudan. Those are examples Somaliland is actually close to but you neglected to mention it for some reason. Sorry but just like Addis Ababa and Khartoum, only Mogadishu can give you independence. That is how the world sees it.

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

It receives aid directly from Mogadishu lol. Hardly a sign of independence

Yeah but the DP world deal was much smaller in scale and didn't harm or infringe on Somalia in any way besides FGS not approving of it. The MOU is entirely different beast.

Lol no. All the MOU did was have the international community once again remind SL who they support (FGS). Again, SL has been stuck in a state of limbo for decades and you suddenly think this MOU will change that?

Trump ain't doing that whatsoever, what kind of khat have you been chewing lol. America has spent billions on Somali's security and development and have been getting very close and fostering good relations with FGS. Why on earth would Trump flush all that away just recognize sambusaland? Utterly asinine. Even Russia and China don't entertain recognizing Somaliland because they value their relationship with FGS way more.

You can laugh all you want dude, its the truth. Somalia can internally destroy Somaliland if it so wishes but HSM finds SL useful as a bulwark against Puntland.

Somalia did not object to the DP World deal, Farmaajo refused to sign the law passed by parliament. You can argue that by not lodging a complaint with the UN security council, Somalia assented to the DP World deal.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

I'm pretty sure its already in their constitution that Somaliland is a federal state.

Almost none of those are anything like Somaliland. Closest is your Tanzania example and they still remained the same after their union. The only major changes to Africa's borders were the creation of Eritrea and South Sudan. Those are examples Somaliland is actually close to but you neglected to mention it for some reason. Sorry but just like Addis Ababa and Khartoum, only Mogadishu can give you independence. That is how the world sees it.

Eritrea and Ethiopia - Federated by the UN, when Italy lost the second world war they were forced into Ethiopia and so was never made an independent country. Other parties must recognize Eritrea becaue Ethiopia has agreed to the seperation.

South Sudan -

Sudan is on the map in 1960 because it's already recieved independence - there is no South Sudan at Independence but because Sudan agreed to this seperation then other parties must acknowledge it.

These examples are actually different because they never gained independence like Somaliland did.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Somalia did not object to the DP World deal, Farmaajo refused to sign the law passed by parliament. You can argue that by not lodging a complaint with the UN security council, Somalia assented to the DP World deal.

A company building something in your country isn't a sovereign act or threat to regional peace. Why would the UNSC get involved?

A military base would be considered a sovereign act and that's why Somalia went to the UNSC for the UAE base.

 

[Zak12]

Eritrea and Ethiopia - Federated by the UN, when Italy lost the second world war they were forced into Ethiopia and so was never made an independent country. Other parties must recognize Eritrea becaue Ethiopia has agreed to the seperation.

View attachment 332074

South Sudan - View attachment 332077
Sudan is on the map in 1960 because it's already recieved independence - there is no South Sudan at Independence but because Sudan agreed to this seperation then other parties must acknowledge it.

These examples are actually different because they never gained independence like Somaliland did.

My point is that both Ethiopia and Sudan gave their consent to UN held referendums. Somalia has to do the same or else SL can't get its independence.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

My point is that both Ethiopia and Sudan gave their consent to UN held referendums. Somalia has to do the same or else SL can't get its independence.

SL can use it's colonial borders on independence to satisfy AU rules. It's a legal basis for SL that South sudan and Eritrea never had. That way SL can try to gain independence without Mogadishu consent by slowly convincing enough African countries until we get enough that Somalia just has to accept it.

 

[Zak12]

SL can use it's colonial borders on independence

Lmao that isn't valid whatsoever. Otherwise tons of countries would claim land that used to be apart of their colonial past. That ain't flying buddy especially given there are parts of Somaliland that don't want to be apart of those colonial borders.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Lmao that isn't valid whatsoever. Otherwise tons of countries would claim land that used to be apart of their colonial past. That ain't flying buddy especially given there are parts of Somaliland that don't want to be apart of those colonial borders.

What do you think is happening right now?
We've already been down this road. Borders achieved on independence, make a mental note of that. There's really only SL in this position.
Right now the cost is high for the first few countries to recognize SL because they have to annoy Somalia but the more that do, the cost becomes lower and lower until SL gets enough to win a vote at the AU. Then the cost is zero and Somalia just has to accept it.

Memorize these words lol.

 

[Zak12]

Borders achieved on independence,

If you are referring to the State of Somaliland that only existed for 5 days and got dissolved and joined with the Trust Territory of Somaliland to form Somalia. Those borders don't exist anymore and haven't been functional for over 60 years.

cost becomes lower and lower

Holy cope. Somaliland will never have anything to offer to other countries, its as simple as that. Somalia is richer, has a bigger population, and has more resources. Its a more attractive country than Somaliland in every metric despite the instability that has plagued it. Even Puntland alone has more to offer than Somaliland.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

If you are referring to the State of Somaliland that only existed for 5 days and got dissolved and joined with the Trust Territory of Somaliland to form Somalia. Those borders don't exist anymore and haven't been functional for over 60 years.


Holy cope. Somaliland will never have anything to offer to other countries, its as simple as that. Somalia is richer, has a bigger population, and has more resources. Its a more attractive country than Somaliland in every metric despite the instability that has plagued it. Even Puntland alone has more to offer than Somaliland.

What other borders does the AU mention or talk about? None, only the borders achieved on independence.


Italian Somaliland is a failed state.

Get to designing your new flag because no one is joining you
.

 

[Zak12]

only the borders achieved on independence.

Once again, Somaliland dissolved and the borders from July 1 1960 onwards are the only ones the AU and UN respects.

Italian Somaliland is a failed state

Then its quite sad that Somaliland couldn't even achieve recognition against a failed state for over 30 years. That is unironically a humiliation ritual right there. If I was a Lander I would beg for reintegration with Somalia to stop the embarrasment for my state lmao

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

te sad that Somaliland couldn't even achieve recognition against a failed state for over 30 years. That is unironically a humiliation ritual right there. If I was a Lander I would beg for reintegration with Somalia to stop the embarrasment for my state lmao

 

[Zak12]

don't be too sad

 

[El Nino]

SL is not getting recognised due to it being poor place mostly being financed by western aid money and diaspora remittances, same as rest of Somaliweyn. It also suffers from the same problems that plague somalis; qabyaalad, bad leadership, drought, resource scarcity, the list goes on and on.

There is no real incentive for the gaalada to recognise SL as it offers nothing substantial in return. Simple as that.

Also recent clan conflict between Isaaq and Dhulbahante saw the latter drive away the former from its lands. Isaaqs campaigning for independence in 1960 borders are delusional, vast majority of Isaaqs knowing its useless to fight again or try to get them back to the fold. Which is why renewing the war is hugely unpopular.

Isaaqs could try to restucture the state to only have clans receptive to getting free from the rest of Somalia. Basically this means its Isaaqs and Gadabuursi. The former would have to give the latter multiple concessions in order for this state to be viable. No clan in Somalia/somaliweyn wants to be dominated by another clan. Isaaqs at the moment do not have a good track record of not trying to do that.

 

[Zak12]

as it offers nothing substantial in return

Exactly. SL would have achieved recognition a long time ago if it had its own niche or something useful that benefits other countries. SL's leaders are absolutely clueless.

Call me a conspiracy theorist but I personally think Somaliland's leaders don't actually want recognition. They enjoy the current state of limbo as they continue to get aid and enjoy ruling over their own tuulos. Occasionally they will use recognition as a talking point for votes and to unify the country but they will never take any steps for recognition.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

SL is not getting recognised due to it being poor place mostly being financed by western aid money and diaspora remittances, same as rest of Somaliweyn. It also suffers from the same problems that plague somalis; qabyaalad, bad leadership, drought, resource scarcity, the list goes on and on.

There is no real incentive for the gaalada to recognise SL as it offers nothing substantial in return. Simple as that.

Also recent clan conflict between Isaaq and Dhulbahante saw the latter drive away the former from its lands. Isaaqs campaigning for independence in 1960 borders are delusional, vast majority of Isaaqs knowing its useless to fight again or try to get them back to the fold. Which is why renewing the war is hugely unpopular.

Isaaqs could try to restucture the state to only have clans receptive to getting free from the rest of Somalia. Basically this means its Isaaqs and Gadabuursi. The former would have to give the latter multiple concessions in order for this state to be viable. No clan in Somalia/somaliweyn wants to be dominated by another clan. Isaaqs at the moment do not have a good track record of not trying to do that.

What do you think Ethiopia and others are going to recognize?

Go look in the AU charter and see if you find clans, or regions being recognized? Nope, only borders on independence. If the majority wills it we can make it happen.

SL has the gulf aden, Somalia cannot grant access. No Berbera base for the US while SL remains unrecognized.

 

[Hared]

The issue of a country recognising another country or de-recognising it is a unilateral one. Every country in this world has that right and cannot be taken to court for that decision. If ethiopia chooses to recognise somaliland no one can do anything legally against it. That is why you see China and Taiwan always in competition for recognition and de-recognition through enticement not through courts. Kosovos recognition by other countries os also a demonstration of this unilateral right. Now a seat at the UN is another matter, you need two thirds of the members to vote for your entry and not a single veto from the five permanent members. Hence kosovo being recognised by over a hundred nations and not having a seat at the UN because of Russian veto.

 

[Haragwaafi]

@Rabiic Here is the simple explanation as to why today’s Somaliland has no legal basis:

1. Somaliland elected 33 MPs to its Legislative Assembly on Feb 17 1960.
2. These 33, freely elected, MPs passed the THE UNION OF SOMALILAND AND SOMALIA LAW on June 27 1960, the first day of independence.
3. The 33 MPs, including the four members of the Council of Ministers (among them Cigaal and Cali Garaad) took this legislation and flew to Mogadishu.
   
   
4. On July 4th, Somaliland’s 33 MPs were merged with Somalia’s 90, and they together elected the first president of the Somali Republic.
5. On July 5th, 4 days after union, Somaliland’s 4 man council of ministers assented to the Union of Somaliland and Somalia Law that the Legislative Assembly had passed on June 27.

How can a meeting of rebel militia and capo qabiils in Burco proclaim secession? Who voted for the men who signed the secessio/treason declaration? How can they overrule the 1960 decision of the 33 freely elected MPs? Of course there is no legal basis.

Somaliland ceased to exist on July 1st 1960, and its elected representatives wanted it that way. No one can run time backward. Forever means forever.
View attachment 332073

Xamar politicians passed another union act bill that was different without consulting Somaliland's representatives and there was no signing that took place between the 2 parties on the union which effectively makes it a total annexation by the entity that existed in Xamar instead of actual union of two nations.

It was only on 18 January 1961 when a new Act of Union was put to the National Assembly, and was promulgated on 31 January 1961. This Law entitled the “Act of Union” was made retrospective even though there is a generally accepted principle that laws should not be retroactive. The new Act of Union was different from the one signed by the Somaliland Legislature and re-produced below. The Law of Union passed by the Somaliland Legislature contained some guarantees about the laws applicable in Somaliland, the rights of Somaliland serving officers, which should not become less favourable than was applicable to them at the time of the union, the establishment of a special Commission on laws and its composition etc. These were, in hindsight, the only, rather half hearted, demands that the Somaliland made at the time of the union. But the 1961 retrospective Act was very clear in repealing anything which was inconsistent with the 1960 Somalia Constitution, and specifically repealed “the provisions of the Union of Somaliland and Somalia (Law No.1 of 1960)” except for Article 11(4) which, as you can see below relates to agreements entered into by the independent State of Somaliland (see Article 9(2) of the 1961 Act of Union).



This was a clear indication that Somaliland was an independent state with a Government of its own, however short that period was, and under Article 11(4) of the 1961 Act of Union, it was again confirmed that



“all rights lawfully vested in or obligations lawfully incurred by the independent Governments of Somaliland and Somalia … shall be deemed to have been transferred to and accepted by the Somali Republic upon its establishment”.