Sudan autosomal study

[Grant]

"Cluster with the various people of the eastern Mediterranean" is one of the most stupid things I've read. Eastern Mediterranean is only geographical. Genetically it is a cluster f*ck. Also this




The most prominent haplogroup in modern Egyptians is View attachment 33732
and View attachment 33733
in that order. Both are main Afro Asiatic lineages.


The precursor E1b1b1 in our case came from the Horn into Ancient Egypt where it spread and remained. Proto Cushites or whatever you wanna call them wandered down from Egypt slowly splitting along the way before the most final split 3000 years ago (which is when the shared gene pool with Habeshas ended according to one actual geneticist) when the Proto Somali wandered into the Somali Peninsula and the Proto Ethiopian wandered into Southern Ethiopia with those who wandered further than that ending up completely swallowed by Bantus and Nilotics.
View attachment 33734

Cruciani says E-V-32 originated in North Africa, and then moved south. Repeating this from the Namoratunga thread:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V32

In human genetics, E-V32, also known as E1b1b1a1a1b[1] (Formerly E3b1a1a), is a Y DNA Chromosome haplogroup found primarily in the Horn of Africa, a descendant of the larger E-V68 branch of the macrohaplogroup E.

Haplogroup E-V32
Origins

"Cruciani et al. (2007) suggest that this sub-clade of E-V12 originated in North Africa, and then subsequently expanded further south into the Horn of Africa, where it is now prevalent.[Note 3] Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004)referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%). Outside of eastern Africa, it was found in two subjects from Egypt (3.6%) and in one Arab from Morocco".

This is the group that migrated up the Nile to the Lake Turkana area and entered Somalia from the south..

T and J probably precede this group in Somalia by at least a thousand years and almost certainly entered from the north. There is a debate over whether T was in Somalia at 6-8 kya, or in the Red Sea hills then and moved south at 3kya.

My best guess: the Southern Cushites moved south also from this Lake Turkana area. V-32 only began moving north about the beginning of the Common Era. In Somalia, E-V-32 went north and then east and then south. The Hawiyya follow the Shabelli out of the Ogaden, arriving at Merka by about 1100 AD. The northern clans form in the 12th-13th centuries and begin to expand into the camel lands of the south, giving the illusion of a generally southern movement. Think about it: Except for pockets of Dir fleeing the Adal wars, those moving south were all Darood. T has been stable, right where they are today, for millenia. J also has an ancient history with the Warsangali, who have also not moved much.

Looks like E-V-32 were (are) major wanderers.

 

[XoosBoos]

Walaal, why are you asking this man something he has no knowledge about? I know you consider me a biased person, but do you consider the following institutes as Afrocentric liars? Walaa. if you truly want information then just read through the sources that I'll provide and not @Amun fake history. Tell me if I changed your opinion or not!

@Amun @World @sophisticate @Bahal @Sharmake shark @Prince Abubu @Menelik III
I dare you all to refute my argument! I doubt any of you have the balls!



University of Chicago

Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty.

https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/special-exhibits/nubia-salvage-project-1

In the earliest stages, the Neolithic of Sudanese tradition strongly influenced the Tasian culture of Upper Egypt as illustrated by the famous caliciform beakers of the Sudanese Neolithic that appear also in the deserts, Lower Nubia, and at Deir Tasa (Brunton 1937, pl. 12.52–67; Friedman and Hobbs 2002, fig. 4; Darnell 2002, p. 162; Reinold 2000, p. 61). This participation in Dynastic culture by Nubia should come as no surprise, since Nubia and Egypt were not only deeply intertwined, they also both belonged to the “great east African substratum” (Frankfort 1948, p. 6). Since Nubia and Egypt were not only deeply intertwined, they also both belonged to the “great east African substratum” (Frankfort 1948, p. 6).

https://www.academia.edu/6346715/Th...Civilization_Chicago_Oriental_Institute_2011_



University of Oxford

Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization.."
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28

The African origins of Egyptian civilisation lie in an important cultural horizon, the ‘primary pastoral community’, which emerged in both the Egyptian and Sudanese parts of the Nile Valley in the fifth millennium BC. It has been clear for some decades that the later prehistory of Egypt cannot be adequately understood in isolation from a wider African context (see O’Connor & Reid 2003, with reviews of earlier literature). The aim of the present article is to define an important horizon of cultural change, belonging to the fifth millennium BC, linking Egypt’s early development firmly to that of its southern neighbours in Nubia and central Sudan

http://www.academia.edu/31488087/Cu...istoric_perspective_on_Egypts_place_in_Africa


University of Cambridge

Were the Ancient Egyptians Africans? What colour was their skin?

Yes. Egypt is in Africa and there are many cultural links to other African civilisations.

If we look at the skin colour and also facial features on representations of Egyptians, many are what we would consider today to be Black African. Skin colours on temple and wall reliefs show ranges between dark brown and black, which is typical of what we see today with regard to people of Black African descent or origin. Furthermore, Nubians, a group who are accepted universally as Black Africans are, like their neighbours from Kemet, shown on reliefs with both jet black and red-brown skin and can be distinguished as Nubians by their short wigs.

http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/dept/ant/egypt/kemet/virtualkemet/faq/


British Museum (one of the top museums in the world)

In the Predynastic period, the Egyptian and Nubian identities still shared many common traits derived from a common ancestry. The Naqada (Egyptian) culture developed from the Badarian(Egyptian) culture which, as the Tasian, was related to the Nubian Neolithic tradition (Gatto 2002; 2006c). Thus, the definition of what was Egyptian or Nubian at that time in the First Cataract region (and the southern part of Upper Egypt) is not so obvious
https://www.academia.edu/327904/Egy..._from_the_First_Cataract_and_its_surroundings

Smithsonian Museum (the top museum in the world)

Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada (Egyptian) and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990).
https://www.academia.edu/470411/Den...sts_Difficult_transition_and_gradual_recovery

Manchester Museum/ University

To sum up, Nubia is Egypt’s African ancestor. What linked Ancient Egypt to the rest of the North African cultures is this strong tie with the Nubian pastoral nomadic lifestyle, the same pastoral background commonly shared by most of the ancient Saharan and modern sub-Saharan societies. Thus, not only did Nubia have a prominent role in the origin of Ancient Egypt, it was also a key area for the origin of the entire African pastoral tradition.

http://www.academia.edu/545582/The_..._Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record

No one gives a f*ck to a pagan kingdom. Somalis got their own history. We are not hoteps like you. They even called Horn of Africa the lands of gods. They all are pagans rooting in hell.

 

[Apollo]

@DeathWish modern Arab Egyptians are 'blacker' genetically than the Ancients. Study after study has proven this, even Copts from far-south Sudan carry less Sub-Saharan ancestry than DELTA Arabs.

Give it up, Ancient Egypt was just a rip off of Mesopotamia and not African in origin.

 

[Apollo]

This is the group that migrated up the Nile to the Lake Turkana area and entered Somalia from the south..

T and J probably precede this group in Somalia by at least a thousand years and almost certainly entered from the north. There is a debate over whether T was in Somalia at 6-8 kya, or in the Red Sea hills then and moved south at 3kya.

Repost:

"This @Grant guy is utterly retarded. Is he now claiming that Cushites came via South Sudan? What an idiot. The Dinka are purely Nilotic and have no traces of Cushitic admixture, likewise for the Anuak, Shilluk, Nuer and Gumuz. The only plausible way Cushites could have entered from Sudan is via the Northeast where the Beja live.

And then you have to explain the lack of Omotic in Somalis.. Southern Ethiopia is rich in Omotic ancestry while Somalis are missing it.

Your South Sudan>South Ethiopia>Somalia theory is bunk."

 

[Grant]

No one gives a f*ck to a pagan kingdom. Somalis got their own history. We are not hoteps like you. They even called Horn of Africa the lands of gods. They all are pagans rooting in hell.

Somali history? Is that where everybody is J1 and speaks Maxaa?

The land of the gods was east, the "Duat". It was entered by going west, entering the "akhet" at the western horizon..

This "Somalia" thing needs to be put to rest.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_mythology

"Ra's movements through the sky and the Duat are not fully narrated in Egyptian sources,[89] although funerary texts like the Amduat, Book of Gates, and Book of Caverns relate the nighttime half of the journey in sequences of vignettes.[90] This journey is key to Ra's nature and to the sustenance of all life.[30]

In traveling across the sky, Ra brings light to the earth, sustaining all things that live there. He reaches the peak of his strength at noon and then ages and weakens as he moves toward sunset. In the evening, Ra takes the form of Atum, the creator god, oldest of all things in the world. According to early Egyptian texts, at the end of the day he spits out all the other deities, whom he devoured at sunrise. Here they represent the stars, and the story explains why the stars are visible at night and seemingly absent during the day.[91]

At sunset Ra passes through the akhet, the horizon, in the west. At times the horizon is described as a gate or door that leads to the Duat. At others, the sky goddess Nut is said to swallow the sun god, so that his journey through the Duat is likened to a journey through her body.[92] In funerary texts, the Duat and the deities in it are portrayed in elaborate, detailed, and widely varying imagery. These images are symbolic of the awesome and enigmatic nature of the Duat, where both the gods and the dead are renewed by contact with the original powers of creation. Indeed, although Egyptian texts avoid saying it explicitly, Ra's entry into the Duat is seen as his death.[93]



Ra (at center) travels through the underworld in his barque, accompanied by other gods[94]
Certain themes appear repeatedly in depictions of the journey. Ra overcomes numerous obstacles in his course, representative of the effort necessary to maintain maat. The greatest challenge is the opposition of Apep, a serpent god who represents the destructive aspect of disorder, and who threatens to destroy the sun god and plunge creation into chaos.[95] In many of the texts, Ra overcomes these obstacles with the assistance of other deities who travel with him; they stand for various powers that are necessary to uphold Ra's authority.[96] In his passage Ra also brings light to the Duat, enlivening the blessed dead who dwell there. In contrast, his enemies—people who have undermined maat—are tormented and thrown into dark pits or lakes of fire.[97]

The key event in the journey is the meeting of Ra and Osiris. In the New Kingdom, this event developed into a complex symbol of the Egyptian conception of life and time. Osiris, relegated to the Duat, is like a mummified body within its tomb. Ra, endlessly moving, is like the ba, or soul, of a deceased human, which may travel during the day but must return to its body each night. When Ra and Osiris meet, they merge into a single being. Their pairing reflects the Egyptian vision of time as a continuous repeating pattern, with one member (Osiris) being always static and the other (Ra) living in a constant cycle. Once he has united with Osiris' regenerative power, Ra continues on his journey with renewed vitality.[65] This renewal makes possible Ra's emergence at dawn, which is seen as the rebirth of the sun—expressed by a metaphor in which Nut gives birth to Ra after she has swallowed him—and the repetition of the first sunrise at the moment of creation. At this moment, the rising sun god swallows the stars once more, absorbing their power.[91] In this revitalized state, Ra is depicted as a child or as the scarab beetle god Khepri, both of which represent rebirth in Egyptian iconography.[98]"

 

[XoosBoos]

Somali history? Is that where everybody is J1 and speaks Maxaa?

The land of the gods was east, the "Duat". It was entered by going west, entering the "akhet" at the western horizon..

This "Somalia" thing needs to be put to rest.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_mythology

"Ra's movements through the sky and the Duat are not fully narrated in Egyptian sources,[89] although funerary texts like the Amduat, Book of Gates, and Book of Caverns relate the nighttime half of the journey in sequences of vignettes.[90] This journey is key to Ra's nature and to the sustenance of all life.[30]

In traveling across the sky, Ra brings light to the earth, sustaining all things that live there. He reaches the peak of his strength at noon and then ages and weakens as he moves toward sunset. In the evening, Ra takes the form of Atum, the creator god, oldest of all things in the world. According to early Egyptian texts, at the end of the day he spits out all the other deities, whom he devoured at sunrise. Here they represent the stars, and the story explains why the stars are visible at night and seemingly absent during the day.[91]

At sunset Ra passes through the akhet, the horizon, in the west. At times the horizon is described as a gate or door that leads to the Duat. At others, the sky goddess Nut is said to swallow the sun god, so that his journey through the Duat is likened to a journey through her body.[92] In funerary texts, the Duat and the deities in it are portrayed in elaborate, detailed, and widely varying imagery. These images are symbolic of the awesome and enigmatic nature of the Duat, where both the gods and the dead are renewed by contact with the original powers of creation. Indeed, although Egyptian texts avoid saying it explicitly, Ra's entry into the Duat is seen as his death.[93]



Ra (at center) travels through the underworld in his barque, accompanied by other gods[94]
Certain themes appear repeatedly in depictions of the journey. Ra overcomes numerous obstacles in his course, representative of the effort necessary to maintain maat. The greatest challenge is the opposition of Apep, a serpent god who represents the destructive aspect of disorder, and who threatens to destroy the sun god and plunge creation into chaos.[95] In many of the texts, Ra overcomes these obstacles with the assistance of other deities who travel with him; they stand for various powers that are necessary to uphold Ra's authority.[96] In his passage Ra also brings light to the Duat, enlivening the blessed dead who dwell there. In contrast, his enemies—people who have undermined maat—are tormented and thrown into dark pits or lakes of fire.[97]

The key event in the journey is the meeting of Ra and Osiris. In the New Kingdom, this event developed into a complex symbol of the Egyptian conception of life and time. Osiris, relegated to the Duat, is like a mummified body within its tomb. Ra, endlessly moving, is like the ba, or soul, of a deceased human, which may travel during the day but must return to its body each night. When Ra and Osiris meet, they merge into a single being. Their pairing reflects the Egyptian vision of time as a continuous repeating pattern, with one member (Osiris) being always static and the other (Ra) living in a constant cycle. Once he has united with Osiris' regenerative power, Ra continues on his journey with renewed vitality.[65] This renewal makes possible Ra's emergence at dawn, which is seen as the rebirth of the sun—expressed by a metaphor in which Nut gives birth to Ra after she has swallowed him—and the repetition of the first sunrise at the moment of creation. At this moment, the rising sun god swallows the stars once more, absorbing their power.[91] In this revitalized state, Ra is depicted as a child or as the scarab beetle god Khepri, both of which represent rebirth in Egyptian iconography.[98]"

Naacla, you old fool. Idc.

 

[Apollo]

@Grant

Somalis have the LOWEST genetic affinity to that 4,500 year old South-Central Ethiopian cave man of all populations in the Horn. Even less than the Tigray in North Ethiopia.

You are a senile old man making up theories that even fail the most basic of logic.

 

[Sophisticate]

I don't see anyone claiming Morroco or Libya, I wonder why? If anything, I'm still puzzled by everyone's fascination with a defunct civilization. It's 2017, move on. I'm tired of seeing the symbolism everywhere. The obsession with Babylon and Egypt are sad. I'd be reluctant to claim Kerma, Punt or Azania.

Egypt isn't even that old ( roughly 5,000 years) and that was only the Archaic period. Mesopotamia is 6,500 years old. During this time you still had dark-skinned Europeans walking the Earth. What have humans been doing so long? Think about it. Nothing special. Even if native African groups lived in Egypt not much was going on. It was the same in Europe too. Don't people understand that knowledge doesn't exist in a vacuum and if you want to advance you must borrow from others.

 

[Grant]

Repost:

"This @Grant guy is utterly retarded. Is he now claiming that Cushites came via South Sudan? What an idiot. The Dinka are purely Nilotic and have no traces of Cushitic admixture, likewise for the Anuak, Shilluk, Nuer and Gumuz. The only plausible way Cushites could have entered from Sudan is via the Northeast where the Beja live.

And then you have to explain the lack of Omotic in Somalis.. Southern Ethiopia is rich in Omotic ancestry while Somalis are missing it.

Your South Sudan>South Ethiopia>Somalia theory is bunk."

Take another look at your map. M-215 and E-V-32 connect in the area of Kush before proceeding south. We know the northern T and J clans have not moved and are largely unaffected by V-32.

The Samaales seem to have been the vanguard of the Cushitic migrations and may have missed the Omotic groups. The Rendille, Konso and Oromo, etc. remain close Somali relatives.

 

[Apollo]

Naacla, you old fool. Idc.

This guy has Alzheimer's or something. He claimed before that Bantus are not related and do not come from Nigeria/South Cameroon despite all the evidence.

 

[Grant]

@Grant

Somalis have the LOWEST genetic affinity to that 4,500 year old South-Central Ethiopian cave man of all populations in the Horn. Even less than the Tigray in North Ethiopia.

You are a senile old man making up theories that even fail the most basic of logic.

You are clearly missing the point about Mota man. He represents the Horn population BEFORE the Arabic and Cushitic admixtures.

What should this actually be telling you about the Somali migrations?

 

[Apollo]

View attachment 33743

Take another look at your map. M-215 and E-V-32 connect in the area of Kush before proceeding south. We know the northern T and J clans have not moved and are largely unaffected by V-32.

The Samaales seem to have been the vanguard of the Cushitic migrations and may have missed the Omotic groups. The Rendille, Konso and Oromo, etc. remain close Somali relatives.

non-Somali 'proto-Somali' speakers in South Ethiopia are Omotic language shifters and not autosomally close to ethnic Somalis in Somalia who have 0% Omotic admixture. Ethnic Somalis in Somalia are the last remnant pure Cushitic population.

Oromos and the like descend from Somalis who pushed Southwest rather than the other way around.

 

[Grant]

non-Somali 'proto-Somali' speakers in South Ethiopia are Omotic language shifters and not autosomally close to ethnic Somalis in Somalia who have 0% Omotic admixture. Ethnic Somalis in Somalia are the last remnant pure Cushitic population.

Oromos and the like descend from Somalis who pushed Southwest rather than the other way around.

Oromos are dilute Somalis? I think we have been down this route before. Somalis are T, J, V-32, plus a large handful of both native and immigrant minorities. Pure what?

 

[Apollo]

Oromos are dilute Somalis? I think we have been down this route before. Somalis are T, J, V-32, plus a large handful of both native and immigrant minorities. Pure what?

The Cushitic autosomal cluster ALWAYS peaks in Somalis and never in Oromos, not even South Oromos who are Somali+Omotic mutts.

 

[Grant]

This guy has Alzheimer's or something. He claimed before that Bantus are not related and do not come from Nigeria/South Cameroon despite all the evidence.

Bantus come from the Nigeria/Cameroon border. In Somalia they include the Gosha and Mushunguli. The Gabaweyn, Shabelli, Makaane and Shidle, however, never spoke Bantu languages, were NOT part of the Bantu expansion, and are native. The confusion of these two distinct and different groups appears to many outsiders to be political.

 

[Apollo]

@Grant You are full of shit. I'm out.

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

non-Somali 'proto-Somali' speakers in South Ethiopia are Omotic language shifters and not autosomally close to ethnic Somalis in Somalia who have 0% Omotic admixture. Ethnic Somalis in Somalia are the last remnant pure Cushitic population.

Oromos and the like descend from Somalis who pushed Southwest rather than the other way around.

Is it not interesting to see that Oromos are descended from Somalis and not the other way around? The lack of Omotic admixture in Somalis makes me think we have been in the coastal lowlands basically forever, and have been seperate from Ethiopia’s populations for a very long time unlike the Afars.

 

[Grant]

The Cushitic autosomal cluster ALWAYS peaks in Somalis and never in Oromos, not even South Oromos who are Somali+Omotic mutts.

So?

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/somali-y-chromosome-study/

Autosomal DNA
Tishkoff et al. (2009) identified fourteen ancestral population clusters which correlate with self-described ethnicity and shared cultural and/or linguistic properties in Africa in what was the largest autosomal study of the continent to date.[11] The Burji, Konso and Beta Israel were sampled from Ethiopia. The Afroasiatic speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa.[12] The "Cushitic" cluster was also deemed "closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa."[13]

Wilson et al. (2001), an autosomal DNA study based on cluster analysis that looked at a combined sample of Amhara and Oromo examining a single enzyme variants: drug metabolizing enzyme (DME) loci, found that 62% of Ethiopeans fall into the same cluster of Ashkenazi Jews, Norwegians and Armenians based on that gene. Only 24% of Ethiopians cluster with Bantus and Afro-Caribbeans, 8% with Papua New Guineans, and 6% with Chinese.[14]

 

[Apollo]

Tishkoff et al. (2009)

That study did not have Ari and Somali samples for a solid Omotic and Cushitic cluster and used primitive STRs (outdated technology).

You are utterly clueless on this subject. Stop making up these false theories.

 

[Grant]

That study did not have Ari and Somali samples for a solid Omotic and Cushitic cluster.

You are out of your league. Utterly clueless on this subject.

Your opinion is noted. Please come back when you have data to contribute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis

"According to an autosomal DNA study by Hodgson et al. (2014), the Afro-Asiatic languages were likely spread across Africa and the Near East by an ancestral population(s) carrying a newly identified non-African genetic component, which the researchers dub the "Ethio-Somali". This Ethio-Somali component is today most common among Afro-Asiatic-speaking populations in the Horn of Africa. It reaches a frequency peak among ethnic Somalis, representing the majority of their ancestry. The Ethio-Somali component is most closely related to the Maghrebi non-African genetic component, and is believed to have diverged from all other non-African ancestries at least 23,000 years ago. On this basis, the researchers suggest that the original Ethio-Somali carrying population(s) probably arrived in the pre-agricultural period from the Near East, having crossed over into northeastern Africa via the Sinai Peninsula. The population then likely split into two branches, with one group heading westward toward the Maghreb and the other moving south into the Horn.[182] Ancient DNA analysis indicates that this foundational ancestry in the Horn region is akin to that of the Neolithic farmers of the southern Levant.[183]"

This would have been E1b1b. M-215/ E-V-32 divides out at Kush and then heads south, up the Nile as a consequence of the various invasions.

Keep your politics out of this.