Which decade has been the worst decade ever for Somalis/Somalia

[Idilinaa]

Why was Abdullahi Yusuf so spineless why couldn't he just negotiate with the icu

Because Abdullahi Yusuf was one of the biggest traitors known to man. I hope he burns in the deepest pits of hell fire.

I'm always annoyed whenever someone brings up Somalia being in civil war for over 30 years. The civil war practically ended in 2006 with the defeat of the remaining warlords by the ICU and for those brief months, nearly all of Somalia was in genuine peace. Nearly every single problem Somalia has today can be traced to that illegal 2006 invasion yet people still want to think Somalia is inherently dysfunctional.

Many countries have their own civil wars that eventually end with one faction being victorious, so Somalia's situation was initially nothing unique. Very few countries however see foreign intervention that prolongs the civil war or even create an entirely new conflict that did not exist previously. That is Somalia alongside other nations like Libya, Syria and Iraq.

It never was a civil war to begin with. It was foreign proxy agents aka warlords that emerged out that of foreign insurgency groups that invaded Somalia and started brutalizing, looting the local populous and fighting eachother at the same time. All while being entirely being sustained by Ethiopian and US backing.

Civil war refers to a war between citizens of the same country, not a fight between foreign proxies. So it's more accurate to describe it as a proxy war.

But yeah you are right the war itself against these foreign backed criminals ended in 2006, after the ICU rooted out and defeated them.

At least with Libya, Syria and Iraq people people often acknowledge how foreign intervention played the biggest role. With Somalia they present it as endemic and as a civil war between clans, when it never was. It was just a series of foreign inverventions/invasions, foreign backing of groups, occupations and meddling to sustain a protracted conflict.

Tell me how is Piracy and Terrorism endemic to Somalia when it never exist much before 2007 and exploded right after the united states backed Ethiopian invasion. How is clan conflict even a thing when all these insurgencies were not headed by traditional local clan leaders, but organized and funded from abroad?

How is sustained conflict a general Somali thing when the 2 northern regions of Somalia that did not witness successive foreign interventions and meddling just stabilized itself in a few years after? And in the south the kneejerk reaction was to set up Islamic courts right after the war broke out in order to stabilize and bring order.

The only political leader i have seen that has a full grasp of the reality of Somalia is Eritrea's president


Sometimes in rare cases you have foreign political analysts that seem to understand the real situation

 

[Zak12]

Because Abdullahi Yusuf was one of the biggest traitors known to man. I hope he burns in the deepest pits of hell fire.



It never was a civil war to begin with. It was foreign proxy agents aka warlords that emerged out that of foreign insurgency groups that invaded Somalia and started brutalizing, looting the local populous and fighting eachother at the same time. All while being entirely being sustained by Ethiopian and US backing.

Civil war refers to a war between citizens of the same country, not a fight between foreign proxies. So it's more accurate to describe it as a proxy war.

But yeah you are right the war itself against these foreign backed criminals ended in 2006, after the ICU rooted out and defeated them.

At least with Libya, Syria and Iraq people people often acknowledge how foreign intervention played the biggest role. With Somalia they present it as endemic and as a civil war between clans, when it never was. It was just a series of foreign inverventions/invasions, foreign backing of groups, occupations and meddling to sustain a protracted conflict.

Tell me how is Piracy and Terrorism endemic to Somalia when it never exist much before 2007 and exploded right after the united states backed Ethiopian invasion. How is clan conflict even a thing when all these insurgencies were not headed by traditional local clan leaders, but organized and funded from abroad?

How is sustained conflict a general Somali thing when the 2 northern regions of Somalia that did not witness successive foreign interventions and meddling just stabilized itself in a few years after? And in the south the kneejerk reaction was to set up Islamic courts right after the war broke out in order to stabilize and bring order.

The only political leader i have seen that has a full grasp of the reality of Somalia is Eritrea's president


Sometimes in rare cases you have foreign political analysts that seem to understand the real situation

This video is good as well.

 

[X29]

Because Abdullahi Yusuf was one of the biggest traitors known to man. I hope he burns in the deepest pits of hell fire.



It never was a civil war to begin with. It was foreign proxy agents aka warlords that emerged out that of foreign insurgency groups that invaded Somalia and started brutalizing, looting the local populous and fighting eachother at the same time. All while being entirely being sustained by Ethiopian and US backing.

Civil war refers to a war between citizens of the same country, not a fight between foreign proxies. So it's more accurate to describe it as a proxy war.

But yeah you are right the war itself against these foreign backed criminals ended in 2006, after the ICU rooted out and defeated them.

At least with Libya, Syria and Iraq people people often acknowledge how foreign intervention played the biggest role. With Somalia they present it as endemic and as a civil war between clans, when it never was. It was just a series of foreign inverventions/invasions, foreign backing of groups, occupations and meddling to sustain a protracted conflict.

Tell me how is Piracy and Terrorism endemic to Somalia when it never exist much before 2007 and exploded right after the united states backed Ethiopian invasion. How is clan conflict even a thing when all these insurgencies were not headed by traditional local clan leaders, but organized and funded from abroad?

How is sustained conflict a general Somali thing when the 2 northern regions of Somalia that did not witness successive foreign interventions and meddling just stabilized itself in a few years after? And in the south the kneejerk reaction was to set up Islamic courts right after the war broke out in order to stabilize and bring order.

The only political leader i have seen that has a full grasp of the reality of Somalia is Eritrea's president


Sometimes in rare cases you have foreign political analysts that seem to understand the real situation

What do you think would have happened if Siad barre was able to defeat the rebels

 

[Idilinaa]

What do you think would have happened if Siad barre was able to defeat the rebels

He would have stepped down and it would have resulted in a regime change.

He agreed to step down but the insurgents just led with violence , so they didn't afford him the space to actually do that. All they were motivated by was resentment towards Siad Barre, they weren't motivated by a different policy direction or united vision.

The government was actually able to completely defeat two of the 3 major insurgent groups and they were largely victorious until 1991.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

He would have stepped down and it would have resulted in a regime change.

He agreed to step down but the insurgents just led with violence , so they didn't afford him the space to actually do that. All they were motivated by was resentment towards Siad Barre, they weren't motivated by a different policy direction or united vision.

The government was actually able to completely defeat two of the 3 major insurgent groups and they were largely victorious until 1991.

If Siad Barre ever hinted he was ready to step down it was just a ploy to keep his enemies off balance, and he always returned with violence soon after. Never heard of a coup leader just stepping down, they have to go the way they came.

But then you probably think the MSB was elected or something.

 

[Idilinaa]

This video is good as well.

He says it right there in @6:00 ''Instead what US did was to begin waging a proxy war using a network of ruthless warlords''

He lays out how they were funded, organized, given orders by the CIA and was backed by US special operations to operate as a death squad to hunt down innocent Somalis.

 

[Zak12]

He says it right there in @6:00 ''Instead what US did was to begin waging a proxy war using a network of ruthless warlords''

He lays out how they were funded, organized, given orders by the CIA and was backed by US special operations to operate as a death squad to hunt down innocent Somalis.

Its funny how easy it is to find that information online. Even wikipedia flat out states that the CIA was indeed supporting warlords in an effort to curb the rising influence of the ICU. Yet people still want to pretend that foreigners had no role to play in Somalia's "civil war".

As you said, many people will acknowledge the role foreign intervention has played in countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya yet hardly do the same with Somalia. I don't know if that is down to ignorance or something else but I wish for more people to do the same with Somalia. Its tiring to educate people since discourse about Somalia's conflict always focuses on the Somali people and no one else.

CIA activities in Somalia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Idilinaa]

It's true. They just led with violence and was purely motivated with hatred for Siad barre there is nothing else and betrayed their own nation. How would you negotiate with traitors what were bent on only destroying the country and not building it?

The most prolific Somali journalist during the 70/80s interviewed several of those insurgent groups, the SNM; SDF, USC etc .

Gives further proof to how they were just disgruntled self-serving retribution seekers, that was exploited by outside actors to aid in destroying Somalia.


You will think they would unite around policy disagreements or economic problems or governing model specifics. Progressing Somalis was never on the agenda table to them, just personal hatred for this one man. Waa caajib

He pretty much compares it to the Ethiopian TPLF rebel groups he interviewed at the time that ousted Mengistu and says they had a policy agenda/plan for their country after ousting him and a vision for how they wanted Ethiopia to be but the Somali insurgents that ousted Siad didn't have a policy agenda or plan for Somalia. Zero vision.

For those who are less than fluent in Somali can understand.

SNM and SSDF was completely defeated. The SNM was rooted out of Burco and Hargeisa in 1989 after suffering multiple defeats, and SSDF on multiple fronts lost and their major defeat came between 1982-83 when they launched a combined invasion with thousands of Ethiopian troops and was easily picked apart by the national army.

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

It's true. They just led with violence and was purely motivated with hatred for Siad barre there is nothing else.




SNM and SSDF was completely defeated. The SNM was rooted out of Burco and Hargeisa in 1989 after suffering multiple defeats, and SSDF on multiple fronts lost and their major defeat came between 1982-83 when they launched a combined invasion with thousands of Ethiopian troops and was easily picked apart by the national army.

SNM controlled all the territory in Somaliland while the SNA was garrisonned in the cities starving to death probably surviving on air resupply alone though I don't know the precise details.

 

[TheLand]

SNM controlled all the territory in Somaliland while the SNA was garrisonned in the cities starving to death probably surviving on air resupply alone though I don't know the precise details.

Are you claiming SNM controlled Dhulo and Warsan territory?

 

[Idilinaa]

SNM controlled all the territory in Somaliland while the SNA was garrisonned in the cities starving to death probably surviving on air resupply alone though I don't know the precise details.

SNM was based and headquartered in Ethiopia and would intermittently run back like cowards to Ethiopia across the border every time they was defeated.

They didn't control any territory of Somaliland, and launched petty unsuccessful attacks that just saw the civilian population suffer in the process from a counter measure.

In fact people on the ground witnessed how they entered and gained control only a few months after the collapse of the government. Then they just started infighting eachother amongst their ranks and started hunting down different clans to commit mass atrocities.

 

[Idilinaa]

@X29 @Zak12

Read this article. It lists the biggest traitors that betrayed the Somali nation and does a brief history and run down of their motives. Ahmed Yusuf Du'aale, Abdullahi Yusuf, Abdirahman Ali Tuur, Ahmed Mohamuud Silaanyo, Mahamed Faraax Aydiid, Ahmed Umar Jees etc.
A NATION CAN NOT SURVIVE TREASON FROM
WITHIN

https://wardheernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Treason-within_Somalia-Ali-Yusuf.pdf

See what the Ethiopian officer told the SNM commander shilling stuff ''I'm happy tonight to avenge ourselves by your own hands''

He basically told them straight to their face that they played themselves.

Conclusion:

 

[X29]

@X29 @Zak12

Read this article. It lists the biggest traitors that betrayed the Somali nation and does a brief history and run down of their motives. Ahmed Yusuf Du'aale, Abdullahi Yusuf, Abdirahman Ali Tuur, Ahmed Mohamuud Silaanyo, Mahamed Faraax Aydiid, Ahmed Umar Jees etc.
A NATION CAN NOT SURVIVE TREASON FROM
WITHIN

https://wardheernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Treason-within_Somalia-Ali-Yusuf.pdf

See what the Ethiopian officer told the SNM commander shilling stuff ''I'm happy tonight to avenge ourselves by your own hands''

He basically told them straight to their face that they played themselves.

Conclusion:

Wallahi biggest losers what would have happened if Siad started to export oil

 

[Idilinaa]

Wallahi biggest losers what would have happened if Siad started to export oil

He would probably have used the money from the oil export to first rehabilitate the economy, then pay back creditors and then invest the money into more social programs and industries.

 

[The Oponian Guild]

Education needs improvement, pass rates set by the ministry of education for high school exams are too low and even then the students are failing. This has to be addressed.

economic growth has been incremental and slow, construction and infrastructure development/maintenance has been lacking, this may be due to the security threat that still pervades across large tracts of the country.

job opportunities are lacking and can be tied to the second point, youth are still tahriibing at large rates, this too has to be addressed.

corruption is rampant and hasn’t been gotten a hold of, some might argue this is due to clan patronage systems and nepotism, and I’d be inclined to agree, however there are other factors which lead to this too. Lack of accountability and a sort of moral degradation are culprits too.

The security and political situation is volatile, however there have been improvements when compared to other years. However there’s still a long way to go.

 

[X29]

He would probably have used the money from the oil export to first rehabilitate the economy, then pay back creditors and then invest the money into more social programs and industries.

What would have happened once Somalia oil industry was booming would we have ended up like Nigeria

 

[Zak12]

@X29 @Zak12

Read this article. It lists the biggest traitors that betrayed the Somali nation and does a brief history and run down of their motives. Ahmed Yusuf Du'aale, Abdullahi Yusuf, Abdirahman Ali Tuur, Ahmed Mohamuud Silaanyo, Mahamed Faraax Aydiid, Ahmed Umar Jees etc.
A NATION CAN NOT SURVIVE TREASON FROM
WITHIN

https://wardheernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Treason-within_Somalia-Ali-Yusuf.pdf

See what the Ethiopian officer told the SNM commander shilling stuff ''I'm happy tonight to avenge ourselves by your own hands''

He basically told them straight to their face that they played themselves.

Conclusion:

Great article. Its strange to me why so many former Siad Barre followers and great patriots betrayed their nation. There has to be a good reason for it beyond disliking Barre losing the war.

I also noticed a bit here where he says northern Somalis were disgruntled over the lack of having powerful positions in the government when in reality, northern Somalis had plenty of high ranking seats in the government and military.

 

[Idilinaa]

What would have happened once Somalia oil industry was booming would we have ended up like Nigeria

If it was the FGS, Aden's regime and TFG it probably would be true and another example is Yemen for comparison.

But no it wouldn't have ended like that because the Government was socialist but also very robust in governance in allocating expenditure & resources and had lower levels of corruption.
So it would go into developing the country and social programs, same as what was happening already.
The first few years of the regime was one of the most successful governing periods in African history.

 

[Idilinaa]

Great article. Its strange to me why so many former Siad Barre followers and great patriots betrayed their nation. There has to be a good reason for it beyond disliking Barre losing the war.

I also noticed a bit here where he says northern Somalis were disgruntled over the lack of having powerful positions in the government when in reality, northern Somalis had plenty of high ranking seats in the government and military.


View attachment 348102

He is talking about the two administrations before the Barre's regime. ''In the newly government'', There was a economic, political and development divide between the north and the south.

Often times was because of the utter neglect by the British in many ways. The south had more education and more political experience in self-government.

This disparity was at the root of it the tension between the North and South when they integrated with eachother.

That experience in political education and self-government was a noteworthy difference between the north and south. It's ironic that current day secessionists glamorize British occupation , and blame other Somalis for this. The british looked down on them and saw them as unfit to govern themselves.

This also bled into civil administration disparities in the capital before and after independence, with hawiye but especially with Majeerten's preponderance because they had prior statehood administrative experience & education and business capital from it. The business capital was especially important because to run for democratically elected office you need funding and raising money, hardly something everyone could afford to do. This would later be a source of corruption to bridge that gap of lack of capital or funding.

It's true what you said though, Barre tried to bridge the North with the South. As a result they were over represented in the ministry , had high ranking military positions and he built many schools, industries, infrastructure, roads , developed the ports, air ports, naval base etc in the North. Emblematic of this bridge was a road that connected the north and south that was built as well.

The betrayal is not strange tbh, they were self serving that's why they betrayed their own country. You can have internal spats or disagreements with the regime and Siad Barre if you must but that never makes one justified to cross over to lock arms with an arch enemy nation.

If you look at the example's of most of them , one of them like Ahmed Yusuf D'uale was caught passing sensitive classified government documents to Ethiopia in exchange for money. He also snaked Somalia numerous times to Kenya, fled over to the other side during war time and passed over sensitive government documents this is before Barre btw. The rest of them defected to the other side for expedience sake and after being removed from their posts.

 

[Idilinaa]

@Zak12

Arab newspaper interview with Siad Barre when he mentions them as ''Men who betrayed their country'' in 1987.