Which decade has been the worst decade ever for Somalis/Somalia

[Idilinaa]

Just like the SNM/former SNA colonel realizing he got played by Ethiopia to use him to take revenge against his own people, when the Ethiopian confessed to him.

Abdullahi Yusuf had a similar realization that he was the was used by Meles and Mengistu to screw over his own people.

He directly facilitated this, do you know how embarrassing it is to admit this? To admit that you are a traitor and an Ethiopian stooge only nearing your death, you own up to it?

Repeat of 1884: Somalia leaders compete for foreign domination

The death of Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed, former President of the Transitional Federal Government of Somalia (TFG) in Dubai, UAE on March 23, 2012 has sparked intense debate about his political legacy. Without doubt, president Yusuf left an indelible mark in the Somali history.

www.hiiraan.com

And here today you have ignorant people making defenses on his behalf. Talking about selective sources kulaha

He didn't fight Islamic courts union or President Jama, the Transitional Government because they were terrorists, he fought them on behalf of Ethiopia because they were against their interests.

Ethiopia saw the Islamic Courts Union as a threat for the reason they symbolized a rebirth of stronger more united Somalia. Ahmed Gurey syndrome as foreign observers have called it

 

[Idilinaa]

Dont try to change history, they were at war with us and ICU attacked us during cade musa time.

Here we go again

People were on the ground and reported about it and they interviewed them, they didn't attack anyone they retreated near a border town that is all they did after clashing with local war lords. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6141594.stm

The Islamists have so far resisted moving into Puntland, which runs its own affairs and has its own well-armed militia.

and then Puntland attacked them, you can see the testimonies by the ICU it came from them and that Puntland attacked them because they saw them nearing their borders as a provocation.

Islamic Courts clash with Puntland

Heavy fighting has been reported between forces of Union of Islamic Courts and Puntland, the semi-autonomous region of Somalia.

www.aljazeera.com

On Monday, the Islamic Courts said that Puntland’s forces had carried out a pre-emptive strike against their fighters who were gathering on the edge of Puntland.

“Puntland troops attacked us 30 minutes ago in Galinsoor area,” an Islamic Courts source told Reuters on Monday morning.

 

[X29]

Here we go again

People were on the ground and reported about it and they interviewed them, they didn't attack anyone they retreated near a border town that is all they did after clashing with local war lords. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6141594.stm


and then Puntland attacked them, you can see the testimonies by the ICU it came from them and that Puntland saw attacked them because they saw them nearing their borders as a provocation.

Islamic Courts clash with Puntland

Heavy fighting has been reported between forces of Union of Islamic Courts and Puntland, the semi-autonomous region of Somalia.

www.aljazeera.com

How was the ICU governance how did they operate

 

[Idilinaa]

How was the ICU governance how did they operate

They actually implement Sharia Courts much like how Somalis used to in cities and coastal towns throughout history.

What people don't also know is that they implemented Xeer law as well.

Somalia: Not Just Islam - How Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts Used Local Customs

Somalia: The Use of Local Customs by the Union of Islamic Courts

Analysis - Perceptions of Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts have often exaggerated the role of Islam and its radicalisation.

allafrica.com

They were pretty much implementing a very authentic traditional form of Somali governance. They were pretty moderate from a western perspective, since they didn't implement severe punishments or anything that would be deemed radical or grotesque Taliban style. They also didn't restrict peoples freedoms in far reaching ways and under them there was an increase in educational enrollment for girls and they went far to safeguard the safety of women and they didn't restrict womens employment or involvement in civic life. They also didn't force burkha.

I have shared before a study on how even minor clans were operating their own sharia courts and were granted high degree of political inclusion and reduction of discrimination that came with the courts swift justice.

Read this:
Transformation of Communal Sharia Courts of Mogadishu into a unified bureaucratized judiciary.
The Sharia Courts of Mogadishu: Beyond "African Islam'' and "Islamic Law"

You can kinda read a more brief overview her. Remember to look through the refrences.

Islamic Courts Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aseer]

They actually implement Sharia Courts much like how Somalis used to in cities and coastal towns throughout history.

What people don't also know is that they implemented Xeer law as well.

Somalia: Not Just Islam - How Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts Used Local Customs

Somalia: The Use of Local Customs by the Union of Islamic Courts

Analysis - Perceptions of Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts have often exaggerated the role of Islam and its radicalisation.

allafrica.com

They were pretty much implementing a very authentic traditional form of Somali governance. They were pretty moderate from a western perspective, since they didn't implement severe punishments or anything that would be deemed radical or grotesque Taliban style. They also didn't restrict peoples freedoms in far reaching ways and under them there was an increase in educational enrollment for girls and they went far to safeguard the safety of women and they didn't restrict womens employment or involvement in civic life. They also didn't force burkha.

I have shared before a study on how even minor clans were operating their own sharia courts and were granted high degree of political inclusion and reduction of discrimination that came with the courts swift justice.

Read this:
Transformation of Communal Sharia Courts of Mogadishu into a unified bureaucratized judiciary.
The Sharia Courts of Mogadishu: Beyond "African Islam'' and "Islamic Law"

You can kinda read a more brief overview her. Remember to look through the refrences.

Islamic Courts Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you explain the concept of xeer laws and how they inplemented it in a modern society.

 

[Zak12]

Here we go again

People were on the ground and reported about it and they interviewed them, they didn't attack anyone they retreated near a border town that is all they did after clashing with local war lords. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6141594.stm


and then Puntland attacked them, you can see the testimonies by the ICU it came from them and that Puntland attacked them because they saw them nearing their borders as a provocation.

Islamic Courts clash with Puntland

Heavy fighting has been reported between forces of Union of Islamic Courts and Puntland, the semi-autonomous region of Somalia.

www.aljazeera.com

But it says in the aljazeera article that the ICU pledged to take control over the whole country.

 

[X29]

They actually implement Sharia Courts much like how Somalis used to in cities and coastal towns throughout history.

What people don't also know is that they implemented Xeer law as well.

Somalia: Not Just Islam - How Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts Used Local Customs

Somalia: The Use of Local Customs by the Union of Islamic Courts

Analysis - Perceptions of Somalia's Union of Islamic Courts have often exaggerated the role of Islam and its radicalisation.

allafrica.com

They were pretty much implementing a very authentic traditional form of Somali governance. They were pretty moderate from a western perspective, since they didn't implement severe punishments or anything that would be deemed radical or grotesque Taliban style. They also didn't restrict peoples freedoms in far reaching ways and under them there was an increase in educational enrollment for girls and they went far to safeguard the safety of women and they didn't restrict womens employment or involvement in civic life. They also didn't force burkha.

I have shared before a study on how even minor clans were operating their own sharia courts and were granted high degree of political inclusion and reduction of discrimination that came with the courts swift justice.

Read this:
Transformation of Communal Sharia Courts of Mogadishu into a unified bureaucratized judiciary.
The Sharia Courts of Mogadishu: Beyond "African Islam'' and "Islamic Law"

You can kinda read a more brief overview her. Remember to look through the refrences.

Islamic Courts Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why was Abdullahi Yusuf such a hater to siad barre why didn't Siad just kill aidid and Abdullahi Yusuf

 

[Idilinaa]

But it says in the aljazeera article that the ICU pledged to take control over the whole country.

Quote from the article.

Since capturing Mogadishu, the Somali capital, in June, the Islamic Courts have pledged to extend their control over the whole of the East African country.

But the leaders of Puntland and Somaliland, two self-governing areas of northern Somalia, have said they will fight any attempt by the Islamic Courts to invade their areas.

This is what the author of the Aljazerra article said, it's not a direct statement by the ICU. When the Islamic Courts Union took over Mogadishu they stated their goal was to ''..lay the foundations for some institutions in Somalia that might form the basis for a better and more peaceful, secure Somalia where the rule of law is important.''

In Mogadishu, Prayers Amid Lull in Violence

Residents of Mogadishu headed to prayers, bolstered by a week of relative calm since an Islamic militia seized control and tightened its grip.

www.foxnews.com

But yeah they didn't invade or attack Puntland. So the whole get back narrative he was trying to makes zero sense, when they were the ones attacked in a extremely brief clash.

 

[Idilinaa]

Why was Abdullahi Yusuf such a hater to siad barre why didn't Siad just kill aidid and Abdullahi Yusuf

Early on before he switched to Ethiopia he was part of a soviet coup attempt to topple Siad Barre and punish the regime for the Ogaden war.

The coup was unpopular, poorly coordinated, got no support from other Somalis so it failed on its face . Several of the ring leaders were captured and put on trial, but Abdullahi Yusuf fled to Kenya, then later housed himself in Ethiopia and conspired with them. Same with Adidid they based themselves in Ethiopia. It's not like Somalia had an extradition treaty with them.

 

[X29]

Early on before he switched to Ethiopia he was part of a soviet coup attempt to topple Siad Barre and punish the regime for the Ogaden war.

The coup was unpopular, poorly coordinated, got no support from other Somalis so it failed on its face . Several of the ring leaders were captured and put on trial, but Abdullahi Yusuf fled to Kenya, then later housed himself in Ethiopia and conspired with them. Same with Adidid they based themselves in Ethiopia. It's not like Somalia had an extradition treaty with them.

Why was Abdullahi Yusuf obsessed with Siad barre and I heard aidid was mentally unwell

 

[Idilinaa]

Why was Abdullahi Yusuf obsessed with Siad barre and I heard aidid was mentally unwell

Not really sure. What do you believe is the reason he had animosity towards him?

They are both the worst traitors and criminals in my book. I would have no qualms with them if they only had political opposition to Siad.

 

[X29]

Not really sure. What do you believe is the reason he had animosity towards him?

They are both the worst traitors and criminals in my book. I would have no qualms with them if they only had political opposition to Siad.

How was aidid perceived by the kacaan

 

[Idilinaa]

How was aidid perceived by the kacaan

He was probably seen as a traitor, war criminal , that abused his role as an ambassador and senior military officer was relieved from his posts as a consequence of his improper behavior

 

[Galool]

Great informative thread @Idilinaa jazakAllah khayr.

Anyone who goes out of their way to defend criminals should fear Allah SWT.

A man asked the Prophet (ﷺ) about the Hour (i.e. Day of Judgment) saying, "When will the Hour be?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "What have you prepared for it?" The man said, "Nothing, except that I love Allah and His Apostle." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "You will be with those whom you love." We had never been so glad as we were on hearing that saying of the Prophet (i.e., "You will be with those whom you love.") Therefore, I love the Prophet, Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I hope that I will be with them because of my love for them though my deeds are not similar to theirs.

 

[X29]

He was probably seen as a traitor, war criminal , that abused his role as an ambassador and senior military officer was relieved from his posts as a consequence of his improper behavior

What was his improper behavior

 

[Yazi]

It was reported that they were pushing for democratic elections, which is true. They weren't there for long so they weren't able to hold the elections. But the fact they were pushing for elections showed further how they were trying to give power back to the people.

Old sources take precedents, the closer the source/reporting is to the event in question , the greater the reliability and accuracy.

If something happened in year 1921 and a guy who lived at that time wrote about it vs an author who didn't wrote about it 2020, which one would you prefer?

Also it's hilarious to accuse me of selective sources. Because my sources are mixed , books articles from Somali authors, interviews , eye witness testimonies and then also outside foreign sources like the newspapers, classified documents etc.
I mix it and try to find corroboration, not only to strengthen their reliability but i also know if i use a single say source yall will say ''Its propaganda from this and that'' .


For example i showed classified documents that reveled how all these insurgents were proxies for Ethiopia .



But i also showed an interview from a leader into those insurgents literally confessing to being proxy for Ethiopia and taking commands from them.


You will find me showing even letters and mission statements sent out by those insurgents as well.

So yeah there is nothing selective about it.

And also as far as Abdullahi Yusuf goes he literally confesses to a lot of in his own crimes and treason in his Somali written book that others have shared and when he was exiled and in his last years before passing in 2011 interview he regretted supporting the Ethiopia backed 2006 invasion but here you are defending him to slander ICU.

Nah, you're clearly selective. Otherwise you'd mentioned the Manifesto group which Afweyne imprisoned when the USC came on the gates of his presidential palace. Only to come up with a ridiculous offer of national unity government headed by himself and every other rebel group is prohibited from taking part in rigged elections he plans to participate in lol.


Also if the source is closer to publishing date than UN reports dismantles all your sources because it was real time, 1990 closer to 1991 than all your other sources.

 

[Yazi]

The most basic source of them all (USA Congress Library, Somalia encyclopedia section) is not shown here.

 

[Idilinaa]

Nah, you're clearly selective. Otherwise you'd mentioned the Manifesto group which Afweyne imprisoned when the USC came on the gates of his presidential palace. Only to come up with a ridiculous offer of national unity government headed by himself and every other rebel group is prohibited from taking part in rigged elections he plans to participate in lol.


Also if the source is closer to publishing date than UN reports dismantles all your sources because it was real time, 1990 closer to 1991 than all your other sources.

I have mentioned this in a different thread and posted speech in real time that Siad barre had made pending the exit. The problem with the Manifesto saying he should step down they didn't create mechanism for a transition of power.

His last speech when this happened he requested from the public to lay down arms, stop looting, killing and he was willing to give up power if that brings peace back. His thoughts and anger was also with them shooting innocent people.

He only stayed in place to prevent the country from falling into chaos and become destabilized.

The manifesto group where allied at the time with USC Militia, colluded with them and nominated Ali Mahdi for president and we can all see what they did when they manage to out Siad Barre. They just started infighting eachother for claim to power, creating mayhem in the process. The same played out in Somaliland they started infighting between different factions of the SNM, started mass slaughtering civilians, hunting down clans and later we see the same play in Puntland during the Puntland Crisis.

Is it because of Siad Barre that this happened? No. They never produced any plans detailing why they desired to take that wrong path and wage a war against their own country. They never found common objectives that could bring them closer to a point where they could agree to integrate their forces and form a unified decision-making body. They never deliberated on how they would run the country after they took over. They were driven by animosity, clan chauvinism, and personal grudge.

Rigged election? Non-of them were driven by creating an all-inclusive democratic governing system.

This holds even more true when all you have to do is compare the insurgencies/rebels to the tplf rebels/insurgency that outsted Mengistu from Ethiopia. Which a Somali journalist at the time had privilege of interviewing both sides

The most prolific Somali journalist during the 70/80s interviewed several of those insurgent groups, the SNM; SDF, USC etc .

Gives further proof to how they were just disgruntled self-serving retribution seekers, that was exploited by outside actors to aid in destroying Somalia.


You will think they would unite around policy disagreements or economic problems or governing model specifics. Progressing Somalis was never on the agenda table to them, just personal hatred for this one man. Waa caajib

He pretty much compares it to the Ethiopian TPLF rebel groups he interviewed at the time that ousted Mengistu and says they had a policy agenda/plan for their country after ousting him and a vision for how they wanted Ethiopia to be but the Somali insurgents that ousted Siad didn't have a policy agenda or plan for Somalia. Zero vision.

For those who are less than fluent in Somali can understand.

So, their failure to stabilize, unite or govern the country after they successfully overthrew the Barre Regime was not a surprise.

These insurgencies/proxies had zero policy or governing plan of action or uniting vision. How do i know this? is it because i read the US congress of library or Somali encyclopedia section writing?

No, it's from SNM's writing's themselves, its from the mouth of those very same rebels. Aside from those clips of interviews that i had shown.

Where they not only spell out how they failed to draw support from other Somalis showing they had no uniting vision but also expressed that their only motive was to collapse the government.

This is from when SNM was trying to form and draw supporters.

Notice he says ''the only thing we wanted now was for the regime to collapse''

Their only proposal was basically ''Come lets destroy Somalia together'' and every one else was like ''No, thank you''

 

[Idilinaa]

That fact i described above also shows you that their opposition to Siad Barre government didn't originate from organic impulses that was rooted in the needs and sentiments of the Somali people, all they were was disgruntled pawns in a plan orchestrated by outside actors that wanted him gone and wanted to destabilize the country for their own geo-political interests.

 

[Yazi]

I have mentioned this in a different thread and posted speech in real time that Siad barre had made pending the exit. The problem with the Manifesto saying he should step down they didn't create mechanism for a transition of power.

Well, we're not talking about other threads we're talking about what you said here. Besides, Siad Barre didn't have an honest transitional plan either. After stocking the flames of tribalism for decade and tearing the the social fabrics of Somali society, his army losing 85% of the territory and reduced to enclaves across the country ... After all this, he comes up and says I'm open for negotiations and free elections but any one who fought him is not eligible is not just laughable but pathetic. The Manifesto Group included people from all clans in Somalia not just Hawiye but it never toke off. I can't believe you're making Afweyne this marty who his most famous quote is "When I came to Mogadishu there was only one road paves by Italians, if you force me out of power I will return Mogadishu like I found it. I came by the gun and only the gun can remove me"

The manifesto group where allied at the time with USC Militia, colluded with them and nominated Ali Mahdi for president and we can all see what they did when they manage to out Siad Barre. They just started infighting eachother for claim to power, creating mayhem in the process. The same played out in Somaliland they started infighting between different factions of the SNM, started mass slaughtering civilians, hunting down clans and later we see the same play in Puntland during the Puntland Crisis.

Is it because of Siad Barre that this happened? No. They never produced any plans detailing why they desired to take that wrong path and wage a war against their own country. They never found common objectives that could bring them closer to a point where they could agree to integrate their forces and form a unified decision-making body. They never deliberated on how they would run the country after they took over. They were driven by animosity, clan chauvinism, and personal grudge.

Rigged election? Non-of them were driven by creating an all-inclusive democratic governing system.

This holds even more true when all you have to do is compare the insurgencies/rebels to the tplf rebels/insurgency that outsted Mengistu from Ethiopia. Which a Somali journalist at the time had privilege of interviewing both sides

Well that's simply not true. The Manifesto included elites from all clans not just Hawiye. Secondly the Qabyalad was deliberately and systematically inflamed by Said Barre to seed discord amongst rival clans so that he can extends the lifespan of his regime for another decade. It came back and bite him later in the a$$ when Ogaden (his own allies) broke off from his MOD army and started a whole rebel movement called SPM. You ever thought why Darood and Hawiye peacefully transfered power before Afweyne's coup with all gov institutions, civil servants and National Army intact? Or why the Somali people from all clans were so receptive of his coup due to the shortcomings of the civil gov without beating their chest and starting a rebel movement?

Thirdly and most importantly, the premise of your whole argument is flawed and invalid. By 1990 there was no government institutions. National Army become an over gloried tribal militia, economy collapsed, people fleeding the nation and insecurity is order of the day. How do you go from a stable government in 1969 to the state collapse in 1991? He came to power with a unified nation, a functioning gov institutions and low levels of Qabyalad to the shit show of 1991 when he left. Barre is the reason for all of this, he should've stepped down in 1978-1980 and allowed free elections since he failed in Ogaden War and the people detested him. If you're unpopular, people want you out, rebel groups are forming in every corner of the country maybe you should stepdown or organize fair elections instead of driving the country to the gutter to keep your bum on the throne.

Another part of your false argument assumes Barre built modern gov institutions in 1960 and the rebels just teared everything down and failed to come up with an alternative. When the the truth is it was handed down to us upon independence from colonial powers. What did Barre actually create when it comes to statecraft? Nothing. He came on a bloodless coup, all gov institutions where there, no opposition, a very homogeneous and supportive population and added his own little commie touch. It's really astonishing the fact you expect a plethora of disorganized tribal militia to start a whole new state from scratch when your dear Afweyne failed to keep an already existing state floating. That's double standards, no it's utterly hypocrisy. Who's more accountable a 20 years established authoritarian government or bunch of rebel groups that rises from your own incompetence???

So, their failure to stabilize, unite or govern the country after they successfully overthrew the Barre Regime was not a surprise.

These insurgencies/proxies had zero policy or governing plan of action or uniting vision. How do i know this? is it because i read the US congress of library or Somali encyclopedia section writing?

No, it's from SNM's writing's themselves, its from the mouth of those very same rebels. Aside from those clips of interviews that i had shown.

Where they not only spell out how they failed to draw support from other Somalis showing they had no uniting vision but also expressed that their only motive was to collapse the government.

It's really an eye opener that you hold rebel groups to standards to clear any just criticism of your dear leader. What about Afweyne's failure to stabilize, unite or governor the country after losing Ogaden War? Why allow all these rebel groups to pop out in the first place? Why use Ethiopian proxies to attack the rebels, doesn't that make you no different than the rebel groups themselves? Infact, it makes you worse because you're a government who's whole claim is based on Somalinimo but finding it acceptable to use Oromo foreigners to fight your rival. You also failed to spell out how Afweyne antagonized every major Somali sub clan in Somalia with his divide & conquer tactics relying on his MOD alliance to keep power. Instead of asking why rebel groups failed to appeal to other clans why don't you ask yourself why all clans refused to work with Afweyne. If every major clan in your country is up and arms maybe the problem is not with them, maybe it's you.